Re: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?

  • From: Kerneels Roos <kerneels@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 21:31:41 +0200

Ha ha ha Ken! I really LOL'ed -- laughed out loud when reading how you
provide a sort of employment from your  sidewalk, obviously a joke hey? Ha
ha. Perhaps not the best thing to give rum to homeless persons, especially
not to the ones that will do 50 dialogues for a fith!

Well guys this turned out into a really nice thread, with many helpful
comments, suggestions and ideas thanks. The low-level assembler and C route
does sound very attractive indeed since it's a very specialised area and for
me at least there is something really special about working with a CPU's
instruction set -- writing a line of code that you know is going to take one
clock cycle or maybe less is so awesome. Also, that kind of coding probably
results in very cryptic and short lines, so it will fit on even small
Braille displays.

It also makes sense to me that, although GUI coding might not be something
you should try and utterly excel at as a blind person, it should be
something you __could__ do if you absolutely had to. Plus, struggling
through the process of hammering out a GUI  in a new language you are
learning will also probably reveal volumes of information to you.

Alex, your idea about totally user customisable user interfaces is a very
interesting concept, coupled with config package sets, as long as it won't
slow down the whole app too much. I was blown away recently by the stunning
job a company did  on a very database driven sort of small business ERP
system written in Apple's FileMaker system.

Their solution did tremendously much and I bet it looked absolutely
fantastic as well. From what I read, FileMaker is like the big daddy of MS
Access  and Apple have had years to perfect it.

From what I understand you have to lock down your FileMaker app to prevent
the client from fiddling around with the solution. I can imagine that this
could be implemented with a role based security system such that you could
lock down everything except the GUI layout so that your client can adjust
that to his / her heart's content.

I have no idea if and how accessible FileMaker is though.

The idea of employing someone to do the GUI layout and even design is a very
plausible solution indeed.

Kerneels

On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 7:42 PM, DaShiell, Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26 <
jude.dashiell@xxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Tree structures get used all the time to make selections like that.
> Seven basic branches each lead to each of their own levels and those in
> turn can lead to their own levels.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Sina Bahram
> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 13:22
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired
> Coders?
>
> The problem with your approach is that you'd need around two 24-inch
> monitors to display that new and improved color pallet. Do you
> know how big those little squares of color are? Almost nothing ... Text
> of equivalent size would be completely unreadable, as in sub
> 1 pt font. Thus, you'd have to make each one bigger. Now, you'd also
> have to have variable length blocks, as well as variable
> height, unless of course you want to standardize on the longest color
> word.
>
> Also, the usability benefit there is nonexistent. If you mouse-over the
> color, you get the name of it in a tooltip. Similarly, at
> least in windows 7 for example, color pallets tend to be arrowed through
> with the keyboard, so that's a way for a screen reader user
> to use it.
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of DaShiell,
> Jude T. CIV NAVAIR
> 1490, 1, 26
> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 12:55 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired
> Coders?
> Importance: Low
>
> What Microsoft did in Microsoft word and Microsoft excel when the color
> picker menu opens up was to put blocks of color on the
> screen, a sighted user moves up and down to the color they want and hits
> enter and that color gets used.  What ought to have been
> done was to write the word red for the color red and write the word red
> with red letters and likewise for the other colors so that
> blue would be written with blue letters.
> Fortunately the bullets menu isn't that bad if you remember top is solid
> and bottom is hollow, again though something a sighted
> person had to tell me.
> Let's not even get into what Microsoft did and didn't do with the user
> interface pieces and standards for its software development
> tools.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of DaShiell,
> Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26
> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 12:35
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired
> Coders?
> Importance: Low
>
> I am certain these usability standards were used when writing Microsoft
> Word, and Microsoft Access and Microsoft Excel.  However in
> the case of Microsoft Access, boxes with handles on them are in their
> forms designer.  That in itself wouldn't be all that bad had
> Microsoft made what those form handles do possible with using the
> keyboard and menus.
> That wasn't done.  In the case of Microsoft Excel and Microsoft Word,
> colors do not announce themselves when a screen reader is used
> to select them.  Bullet types in Microsoft Word don't announce
> themselves either.
> In the case of Microsoft excel, pivot tables at least were unuseable in
> earlier versions of Excel, and it was me and a software
> instructor that figured the way around that little difficulty and
> informed Microsoft about it because Microsoft was either too
> apathetic or lazy to put the information out before then.  It turns out
> cross tabs in Microsoft access are identical to pivot tables
> in Microsoft Excel with the exception that the cross tabs in Microsoft
> access are entirely accessible.  Between me and you, I think
> it's a miracle that Microsoft word was even made accessible at all.
> What I've been told by sighted people who look at the screen is
> that many of the graphics Microsoft puts on there look the same and the
> only way sighted people can tell one from the other is by
> use of context.  Probably no two controls should have identical pictures
> on them unless their function is identical and within a
> program, no two controls should show up with identical crc numbers
> either.  Nothing should be possible with the use of a mouse that
> cannot in any other way be done without a mouse and with either a
> keyboard shortcut or by means of using menus.  Someone probably
> ought to use lbc to put the Microsoft logo on a screen in a small
> program and email it to Microsoft and give Microsoft a little
> background information as to who did it with what visual impairment and
> what tool they used and who's useability standards they
> used, that's if it would do any good and I strongly expect it won't.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Sina Bahram
> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 12:12
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired
> Coders?
>
> Please provide examples then.
>
> How would you like to see them improved?
>
> Are you familiar with the myriad of problems they are trying to solve
> and have a better holistic solution, or are you simply
> frustrated?
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of DaShiell,
> Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26
> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 12:05 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired
> Coders?
> Importance: Low
>
> Sounds like those Microsoft usability standards could do with a rewrite
> or two.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Sina Bahram
> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 11:47
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired
> Coders?
>
> Jim,
>
> These allow you to layout  a GUI, but not one that really meets any kind
> of visual aesthetic. I know Jamal says he consulted the
> Microsoft usability guidelines, if I'm not mistaken, for LBC; however,
> there again, it's the difference between making a usable
> visual UI and a mathematically derived one that looks completely
> different than anything else on the computer.
>
>  This is an extremely hard problem to solve because of the levels of
> design that really go into good functional user interfaces, in
> the visual domain. Layout managers, like the ones found in java, are
> quite fantastic, but it really takes someone with a good
> understanding of HCI and user factors engineering and so on, before you
> get a user interface that is easily usable by the sighted
> public.
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Homme, James
> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 11:38 AM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired
> Coders?
>
>
>
> Hi Guys,
>
> In all honesty, I feel that you have a fighting chance.
>
>
>
> In the Windows, Microsoft world, there is Jamal's stuff. I don't know
> enough about how it all works to recommend the exact set up
> that might be best, but I'm sure Jamal would chime in here. Look at the
> packages called lbc, IniForm, HomerJacs, and LBC.Net.
>
> In the other stuff area, you have these. I would think that in the Java
> world, you would have Swing, with various kinds of layout
> mechanisms, and SWT, with all of its power. With languages like Python,
> C++, and Perl, you'd have the WX stuff at your disposal.
>
>
>
> I say don't give up, and report back how you are doing so that we can
> help you through it. Don't worry, I'll be doing what I'm
> talking about before long.
>
>
>
> Jim
>
> Jim Homme,
>
> Usability Services,
>
> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
>
> Internal recipients,  Read my accessibility blog
> <http://mysites.highmark.com/personal/lidikki/Blog/default.aspx> .
> Discuss
> accessibility here
> <http://collaborate.highmark.com/COP/technical/accessibility/default.asp
> x> . Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news
> and accessibility advice
> <http://collaborate.highmark.com/COP/technical/accessibility/Accessibili
> ty%20Wiki/Forms/AllPages.aspx<http://collaborate.highmark.com/COP/technical/accessibility/Accessibili%0Aty%20Wiki/Forms/AllPages.aspx>
> >
>
>
>
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kerneels
> Roos
> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 11:08 AM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?
>
>
>
> This message was posted to a reply on the long thread about Oracle
> accessibility concerns involving Java. I thought I'd post it
> again with a new subject, since it deviates from the original topic.
>
>
>  I can't agree more your this statement Jay. As much as all of us want
> to create nice GUIs, it is really such such a battel for
> someone that can't see properly, if you are honest with yourself. I
> would say that the FB examples are indicative of this, since the
> FB concept is very simple yet for a visually impaired person to build a
> GUI  is a massive task in all fairness.
>
> I didn't  catch the whole story with the recent critisism of the FB
> examples, but I can understand why a professor for example would
> ridicule having the logic and presentation code (GUI code) all in one
> file. (or any other aspect of the FB stuff that servce the
> purpose of aiding blind people) It's a poor design choice for anything
> but an example, but then, that's exactly what the FB examples
> are -- tools to show you simple GUI creation in various programming
> languages. Personally I think it's great and I commend all the
> contributors. It's a service to the community, but sighted people will
> struggle to see it's worth.
>
> We must understand, for a fully sighted person, building GUIs is
> rediculously easy and straight forward. No matter what kind of
> accessible GUI designer tools there might be in future, the playing
> field will never be level when it comes to anything graphic. Yet
> there is no reason for despair, since there are numerous other areas in
> computer sciense and programming in particular where a blind
> person could compete well and I'm speculating that there might even be
> areas where having no or little sight might aid you!
>
> One particular small project I worked on while studying at university
> springs to mind. It was a little applet developed with AWT or
> Swing that saved your bookmarks in a tree structure. The professor was a
> gracious man, and he gave us a nice score for the project,
> but he stepped in after we did our presentation and basically told the
> class that we really did spend much time on this and that we
> didn't just download it from the net or something... He did this, I
> think, because our project was fairly inferiour graphic wise
> compaired to the elaborate graphics the other student's projects sported
> even though I spent hours and hours on the little GUI side
> of the software.
>
> It's heart breaking for me when I read how hard blind folks try and make
> appealing graphical interfaces, or when I read about the
> struggles some software causes blind guys. It's commendable to see how
> people cope with the worst of situations, but there are also
> better areas to focus on,, areas where you'll be far more productive and
> make a better impact .
>
> It's a complex topic for me and there are much to say about it. What I'm
> wondering is if it is not a good time to review the way
> disabled people are trained up to believe that interaction with
> computers should commence in the generally accepted form of having a
> "normal" or sighted OS with all highly graphical applications with a
> rediculously advanced and complex and expensive screen reader
> stuck on top of it all.
>
> And then, on the other hand, how we can identify better software
> development areas to focus on where blindness poses less of an
> obsticle. Also, how we can advance in those areas and properly promote
> ourselves and our value to a software development shop
> developing for the general public or business where accessibility is of
> little concern. Myself for one have a little bit of a
> complex when think of all my years experience as a software developer
> and yet the difficulty with which I'm faced with when having
> to develop a GUI, and how someone with far less experience than myself
> could code a GUI so much faster and better looking in less
> time and with less effort.
>
> My challenge to the list; let's draw up a specification of areas in
> programming and computer science where visually impaired people
> can excell at in the modern age where graphics does play such a ever
> increasingly important part.
>
> Armed with such a specification we'll be in the right position to start
> and focus efforts on training ourselves up in those areas
> and then sharing knowledge and awareness so that a wel trained blind
> programmer (in the identified fields) could approach any
> development house with confidence of his / her abilities and value she /
> he will add to a company.
>
> Kerneels
>
> On 10/13/2010 12:31 AM, Jay Macarty wrote:
>
>
>
> I would advise spending time on web development with java on the server
> side. Either that or headless java development such as web
> services. Both directions can allow a person to grow into a very strong
> java developer with very marketable skill sets without
> fighting the constant battle of either swing accessibility or trying to
> gain skills in an API, swt, which may have somewhat limited
> acceptence in a large traditional java shop. Personally, I love swt;
> however, as a tech lead, I can't push it into a project here
> because it is not an accepted technology by our enterprise architects.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Homme, James"
> <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx> <mailto:james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 7:02 AM
> Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO
>
>
> Hi Jay,
> Would you advise someone new to Java to spend more time on Swing, SWT,
> or web?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Jim
>
> Jim Homme,
> Usability Services,
> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
> Internal recipients,  Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility
> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility
> advice
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jay Macarty
> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 3:31 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO
>
> Over the past couple of years, I have been involved in hiring java
> developers several times. One of the things we have had trouble
> with is finding people with swing experience. It seems that, while there
> are certainly a number of applications still using swing
> heavily, a lot of java development is moving away from swing based GUI
> interfaces to using web based front-ends. Perhaps, Oracle
> thinks that a declining interest in using swing as a UI means they don't
> need to spend as much effort on swing accessibility but
> that thought path can certainly leave those of us who still need access
> to heavily swing based apps in a spot.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stanzel, Susan - Kansas City, MO" <susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> <mailto:susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 8:11 PM
> Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO
>
>
> Hi Listers,
>
> I have not stepped into this until now. I would hope that needing
> government contracts in the United States would have some affect
> on all this. I have asked people about swing and I am told it isn't used
> very much because there is newer technology out there. I am
> not an experienced Java programmer so maybe the rest of you will know
> more than I do. I know we use Struts at my building for
> creation of web projects. If I have just made a fool of myself, it's not
> the first time and won't be the last. (grin).
>
> Susie Stanzel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The Elf
> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 7:08 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO
>
> hey, this is my usual line, "beat them into submission" lol
>
> or hound,or pummel,  or...
>
> elf
> Moderator, Blind Access Help
> Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
> Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
> - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
> www.alacorncomputer.com
> proprietor, The Grab Bag,
> for blind computer users and programmers
> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx> <mailto:sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 10:14 AM
> Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO
>
>
>
>
>
> Wow, it only took like 15 emails on the subject, but finally the voice
> of reason has made itself known.
>
> Ken, I completely agree. Now is the time to pressure them into actually
> not abandoning it.
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 1:10 AM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO
>
>
>
> If this is true then it's not time to tell people to stay away.  It's
> time to get people to get active and start emailing and
> calling them till they do support it.  If we stay away we lose what
> accessibility was there.
>
>
>
> Ken
>
>
>
>
>
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Storm Dragon
>
> Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 11:09 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO
>
>
>
> Hi,
> I would not doubt it for one second. They dropped the ball on Linux
> accessibility pretty much first thing when they took over Sun.
> It's probably a good idea, if you have influence over software
> decisions, to encourage companies, clients, and friends to stay far
> far away from Oracle and their software. I was even going to get rid of
> Open Office but fortunately the version used in Ubuntu is a
> fork so not subject to them. unless, that is, they somehow manage to win
>
> their evil attack on Google. If that happens, who knows who they will
> attack next. Keep your fingers crossed, and maybe the open
> source community will keep the Bridge going, Orca is still alive and
> well after all.
> Storm
>
> --
>
>
> Registered Linux user number 508465:
> http://counter.li.org/
> My blog, Thoughts of a Dragon:
> http://www.stormdragon.us/
> Get yourself a Frostbox:
> http://www.frostbitesystems.com/
>
>
> On Sat, 2010-10-09 at 08:15 +0530, prateek aggarwal wrote:
>
>
> oh know,
> i wish its just a rumor.
> if its ever going to be true, i'll be so said.
>
> regards,
> prateek agarwal.
>
>
>
> On 10/9/10, Jamal Mazrui <empower@xxxxxxxxx> <mailto:empower@xxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> I heard from a good source today that Oracle has decided to discontinue
> support for the Java Access Bridge (and no alternative is
> planned).  I would be glad to be convinced otherwise.  If anyone has
> information regarding this topic, please share.
>
> Jamal
>
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>
> --
> Kerneels Roos
> Cell: +27 (0)82 309 1998
> Skype: cornelis.roos
>
> "Common Sense" is not "Common Practice" .
>
> "The Strawberry Jam Law:
>  The wider you spread it, the thinner it gets..."
>   -- from the Java Specialist Newsletter, from a book on consulting.
>
>
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-- 
Kerneels Roos
Cell/SMS: +27 (0)82 309 1998
Skype: cornelis.roos

The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese!

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