There are some sighted developers who create UIs in XCode by code, and not with Interface Builder, since xib files are terrible for version control. I don't have a lot of detail since I've never had to use XCode for a project (thank God). Everett Zufelt http://zufelt.ca Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt On 2010-10-13, at 3:03 PM, DaShiell, Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26 wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Theresa Ford [mailto:theresa.ford@xxxxxxxxx] > Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 13:56 > To: DaShiell, Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26 > Subject: Re: FW: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders? > > The XIB file is just XML, and could be created via text editor / > utility script / simple app. However, it's not intuitive XML and it > looks like 69 new lines per basic object (not connected to anything). > My initial thought is that one could build a "library of objects" text > files, with some simple substitution and use a simple bash script to > slam together these text clips to create the xml xib file. From > there, the sighted person could open the xib in the interface builder > and rearrange the view to look right. > > It would be something of a hack, but wouldn't be terribly difficult to > do the 5 base objects (viewcontroller, label, label linked to > variable, textfield linked to variable, button with ibaction). > > With those clips, the script could prompt to add as many as needed > based on the type: > what would you like your label to say? what's the nsviewcontroller > class name? what's your variable name? What's your ibaction name? > > what would you like your label to say? what's the nsviewcontroller > class name? what's your variable name? What's your ibaction name? > > Push that through some sed command, string the results, and you'd have the > xib. > > Of course, this very hacky solution is not very scalable, and doesn't > handle serious cases where you need objects that aren't in the clip > library or you need them to do things that are very cool or apple > changes their xib syntax or you realize you forgot to add an object. > Learning the syntax for manually editing the xib xml just looks > beastly. > > The correct solution would be to toss the problem at the apple dev > team and see if they can reuse their auto-layout code from when you > build core data classes to create an accessible form-creation tool, > with the understanding that it's just going to stack things vertically > for a sighted person to go back later and beautify. > > Feel free to pass this along to Chris. > > - T > > On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 12:59 PM, DaShiell, Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, > 1, 26 <jude.dashiell@xxxxxxxx> wrote: >> Theresa, >> >> Can you answer the Mac programming questions in this message? >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Chris >> Hofstader >> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 12:51 >> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> Subject: Re: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired >> Coders? >> >> I think that a company that hired a blind programmer who later struggled >> to make a GUI that complies with the corporate look and feel, even with >> a sighted assistant, would have no legal way to fire the blind person >> over this issue. The company knew the employee was blind when they made >> the job offer and should probably not assume that the blink is the right >> guy for working on UI stuff. >> >> A couple of years ago when I was doing a lot of C# programming in >> VisualStudio, I would drag UI elements onto the form using JAWS and the >> incredibly excellent scripts currently maintained by Jamal and add the >> code to make the controls do what I had intended. Later, I would get my >> wife, not a programmer by any stretch to rearrange the items on the form >> to look good to people who can see. Yes, I probably could have kept >> track of x, y, width, height of the controls and programmatically placed >> them on the form but that would take hours that would be better used >> working on the guts of my program while my wife could clean up the UI in >> a matter of minutes. >> >> Now, I'm trying to do some of this stuff with xcode on Macintosh and >> without the killer JAWS scripts, the layout component is a mystery to >> me. I don't know if xcode exposes an automation model (sometimes called >> a DOM) or if VoiceOver can be told to get information from xcode the way >> that Jamal's JAWS scripts can do. I'm told that AppleScript can serve as >> a bridge between VoiceOver and xcode (among many other applications) but >> I've seen no evidence of this actually working for anyone. AppleScript >> is really slow - a drawback one can experience by asking VO to tell you >> the time which causes incredible latency given the complete simplicity >> of the task. >> >> Any ideas on xcode UI layout that I can do sloppily and have cleaned up >> by a sightie later would be greatly appreciated. >> >> HH, >> cdh >> On Oct 13, 2010, at 12:00 PM, Client Services wrote: >> >>> Yes... Well I was thinking that more blind peple should start >> businesses. I >>> have found I go farther when not limited by somebody else's >> perceptions. >>> >>> H.R. Soltani >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of DaShiell, >> Jude >>> T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26 >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 11:55 AM >>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired >> Coders? >>> Importance: Low >>> >>> That or give the project to the assistant to do and go on with other >>> things. Even if an assistant is hired, if they don't know the >>> programming graphical user interface standards of your employer, you >>> could be out of work real fast and for good cause. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Client >>> Services >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 11:47 >>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired >>> Coders? >>> >>> Hi- >>> >>> I am very fascinated by this conversation. In my opinion, GUIs can be >>> handled by blind people with a human assistant giving feedback on look >>> and layout. So, don't turn away the project, hire an assistant. >>> >>> I have found that it is hard for me to conceptualize a look and >> layout. >>> But if somebody tells me exactly how they want something designed, it >> is >>> rather straight forward. >>> >>> >>> >>> H.R. Soltani >>> >>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kerneels >>> Roos >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 11:08 AM >>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> Subject: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders? >>> >>> >>> >>> This message was posted to a reply on the long thread about Oracle >>> accessibility concerns involving Java. I thought I'd post it again >> with >>> a new subject, since it deviates from the original topic. >>> >>> >>> I can't agree more your this statement Jay. As much as all of us want >>> to create nice GUIs, it is really such such a battel for someone that >>> can't see properly, if you are honest with yourself. I would say that >>> the FB examples are indicative of this, since the FB concept is very >>> simple yet for a visually impaired person to build a GUI is a massive >>> task in all fairness. >>> >>> I didn't catch the whole story with the recent critisism of the FB >>> examples, but I can understand why a professor for example would >>> ridicule having the logic and presentation code (GUI code) all in one >>> file. (or any other aspect of the FB stuff that servce the purpose of >>> aiding blind people) It's a poor design choice for anything but an >>> example, but then, that's exactly what the FB examples are -- tools to >>> show you simple GUI creation in various programming languages. >>> Personally I think it's great and I commend all the contributors. It's >> a >>> service to the community, but sighted people will struggle to see it's >>> worth. >>> >>> We must understand, for a fully sighted person, building GUIs is >>> rediculously easy and straight forward. No matter what kind of >>> accessible GUI designer tools there might be in future, the playing >>> field will never be level when it comes to anything graphic. Yet there >>> is no reason for despair, since there are numerous other areas in >>> computer sciense and programming in particular where a blind person >>> could compete well and I'm speculating that there might even be areas >>> where having no or little sight might aid you! >>> >>> One particular small project I worked on while studying at university >>> springs to mind. It was a little applet developed with AWT or Swing >> that >>> saved your bookmarks in a tree structure. The professor was a gracious >>> man, and he gave us a nice score for the project, but he stepped in >>> after we did our presentation and basically told the class that we >>> really did spend much time on this and that we didn't just download it >>> from the net or something... He did this, I think, because our project >>> was fairly inferiour graphic wise compaired to the elaborate graphics >>> the other student's projects sported even though I spent hours and >> hours >>> on the little GUI side of the software. >>> >>> It's heart breaking for me when I read how hard blind folks try and >> make >>> appealing graphical interfaces, or when I read about the struggles >> some >>> software causes blind guys. It's commendable to see how people cope >> with >>> the worst of situations, but there are also better areas to focus on,, >>> areas where you'll be far more productive and make a better impact . >>> >>> It's a complex topic for me and there are much to say about it. What >> I'm >>> wondering is if it is not a good time to review the way disabled >> people >>> are trained up to believe that interaction with computers should >>> commence in the generally accepted form of having a "normal" or >> sighted >>> OS with all highly graphical applications with a rediculously advanced >>> and complex and expensive screen reader stuck on top of it all. >>> >>> And then, on the other hand, how we can identify better software >>> development areas to focus on where blindness poses less of an >> obsticle. >>> Also, how we can advance in those areas and properly promote ourselves >>> and our value to a software development shop developing for the >> general >>> public or business where accessibility is of little concern. Myself >> for >>> one have a little bit of a complex when think of all my years >> experience >>> as a software developer and yet the difficulty with which I'm faced >> with >>> when having to develop a GUI, and how someone with far less experience >>> than myself could code a GUI so much faster and better looking in less >>> time and with less effort. >>> >>> My challenge to the list; let's draw up a specification of areas in >>> programming and computer science where visually impaired people can >>> excell at in the modern age where graphics does play such a ever >>> increasingly important part. >>> >>> Armed with such a specification we'll be in the right position to >> start >>> and focus efforts on training ourselves up in those areas and then >>> sharing knowledge and awareness so that a wel trained blind programmer >>> (in the identified fields) could approach any development house with >>> confidence of his / her abilities and value she / he will add to a >>> company. >>> >>> Kerneels >>> >>> On 10/13/2010 12:31 AM, Jay Macarty wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> I would advise spending time on web development with java on the >> server >>> side. Either that or headless java development such as web services. >>> Both directions can allow a person to grow into a very strong java >>> developer with very marketable skill sets without fighting the >> constant >>> battle of either swing accessibility or trying to gain skills in an >> API, >>> swt, which may have somewhat limited acceptence in a large traditional >>> java shop. Personally, I love swt; however, as a tech lead, I can't >> push >>> it into a project here because it is not an accepted technology by our >>> enterprise architects. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Homme, James" >>> <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx> <mailto:james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx> >>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 7:02 AM >>> Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO >>> >>> >>> Hi Jay, >>> Would you advise someone new to Java to spend more time on Swing, SWT, >>> or web? >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> Jim >>> >>> Jim Homme, >>> Usability Services, >>> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme >>> Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss >> accessibility >>> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jay >> Macarty >>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 3:31 PM >>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO >>> >>> Over the past couple of years, I have been involved in hiring java >>> developers several times. One of the things we have had trouble with >> is >>> finding people with swing experience. It seems that, while there are >>> certainly a number of applications still using swing heavily, a lot of >>> java >>> development is moving away from swing based GUI interfaces to using >> web >>> based front-ends. Perhaps, Oracle thinks that a declining interest in >>> using >>> swing as a UI means they don't need to spend as much effort on swing >>> accessibility but that thought path can certainly leave those of us >> who >>> still need access to heavily swing based apps in a spot. >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Stanzel, Susan - Kansas City, MO" <susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx> >>> <mailto:susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx> >>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 8:11 PM >>> Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO >>> >>> >>> Hi Listers, >>> >>> I have not stepped into this until now. I would hope that needing >>> government >>> contracts in the United States would have some affect on all this. I >>> have >>> asked people about swing and I am told it isn't used very much because >>> there >>> is newer technology out there. I am not an experienced Java programmer >>> so >>> maybe the rest of you will know more than I do. I know we use Struts >> at >>> my >>> building for creation of web projects. If I have just made a fool of >>> myself, >>> it's not the first time and won't be the last. (grin). >>> >>> Susie Stanzel >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The Elf >>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 7:08 PM >>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO >>> >>> hey, this is my usual line, "beat them into submission" lol >>> >>> or hound,or pummel, or... >>> >>> elf >>> Moderator, Blind Access Help >>> Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises >>> Specialists in customized computers and peripherals >>> - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn! >>> www.alacorncomputer.com >>> proprietor, The Grab Bag, >>> for blind computer users and programmers >>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx> <mailto:sbahram@xxxxxxxxx> >>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 10:14 AM >>> Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Wow, it only took like 15 emails on the subject, but finally the voice >>> of >>> reason has made itself known. >>> >>> Ken, I completely agree. Now is the time to pressure them into >> actually >>> not abandoning it. >>> >>> Take care, >>> Sina >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> >>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry >>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 1:10 AM >>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO >>> >>> >>> >>> If this is true then it's not time to tell people to stay away. It's >>> time >>> to get people to get active and start emailing and >>> calling them till they do support it. If we stay away we lose what >>> accessibility was there. >>> >>> >>> >>> Ken >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Storm >> Dragon >>> >>> Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 11:09 PM >>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi, >>> I would not doubt it for one second. They dropped the ball on Linux >>> accessibility pretty much first thing when they took over Sun. >>> It's probably a good idea, if you have influence over software >>> decisions, >>> to encourage companies, clients, and friends to stay far >>> far away from Oracle and their software. I was even going to get rid >> of >>> Open Office but fortunately the version used in Ubuntu is a >>> fork so not subject to them. unless, that is, they somehow manage to >> win >>> >>> their evil attack on Google. If that happens, who knows who >>> they will attack next. Keep your fingers crossed, and maybe the open >>> source community will keep the Bridge going, Orca is still >>> alive and well after all. >>> Storm >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> Registered Linux user number 508465: >>> http://counter.li.org/ >>> My blog, Thoughts of a Dragon: >>> http://www.stormdragon.us/ >>> Get yourself a Frostbox: >>> http://www.frostbitesystems.com/ >>> >>> >>> On Sat, 2010-10-09 at 08:15 +0530, prateek aggarwal wrote: >>> >>> >>> oh know, >>> i wish its just a rumor. >>> if its ever going to be true, i'll be so said. >>> >>> regards, >>> prateek agarwal. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 10/9/10, Jamal Mazrui <empower@xxxxxxxxx> >> <mailto:empower@xxxxxxxxx> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> I heard from a good source today that Oracle has decided to >> discontinue >>> support for the Java Access Bridge (and no alternative is planned). I >> >>> would be glad to be convinced otherwise. If anyone has information >>> regarding this topic, please share. >>> >>> Jamal >>> >>> __________ >>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>> >>> >>> >>> __________ >>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>> >>> >>> __________ >>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>> >>> >>> __________ >>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>> >>> __________ >>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>> >>> __________ >>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>> >>> >>> This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are >> intended >>> solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. >>> If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender >>> immediately and then delete it. If you are not the intended >> recipient, >>> you must not keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this e-mail >> without >>> the author's prior permission. The views expressed in this e-mail >>> message do not necessarily represent the views of Highmark Inc., its >>> subsidiaries, or affiliates. >>> __________ >>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>> >>> >>> __________ >>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kerneels Roos >>> Cell: +27 (0)82 309 1998 >>> Skype: cornelis.roos >>> >>> "Common Sense" is not "Common Practice" . >>> >>> "The Strawberry Jam Law: >>> The wider you spread it, the thinner it gets..." >>> -- from the Java Specialist Newsletter, from a book on consulting. >>> >>> __________ >>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>> >>> __________ >>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>> >> >> __________ >> View the list's information and change your settings at >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >> >>