RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?

  • From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 12:10:45 -0400

There of course are languages that do this such as XAML, pronounced  zamel, but 
the semantics of the UI are not captured, only the
relationships and then the specific layouts.

Because our UI's are not procedurally generated, such xml specifications have 
to incorporate all aspects of layout inside of them
rather than allowing such aspects to be unfolded at runtime.

Take care,
Sina

________________________________

From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Chris Hofstader
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 12:03 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?


I agree that Jamal's stuff goes a long way to making GUI programming for 
hackers with vision impairment less onerous and I applaud
his efforts.  

I do, however, agree that blind hackers will never be able to make a GUI as 
visually appealing as our sighted colleagues. Surely, a
relatively simple GUI will probably not be too different from ones that our 
sighted colleagues can make but the greater the
complexity, the greater the difficulty for a blind person to handle. 

For years, Glen Gordon (CTO at FS) had talked about making a programming 
language for describing the elements of a GUI component (a
dialogue for instance) that, when compiled would make a VisualStudio form. He 
felt that such a language could "compile" using a
bunch of rules based heuristics to determine where various controls and such 
should be located in the form. If this is possible, it
is conceivable that really good UI can result from a purely text input method. 
As far as I know, no one has tried this approach yet
and it may be a really interesting research project for someone like Will 
Pearson who really enjoys UI problems.

I still think embedded systems is the way to go as they are fun and the UI may 
be something like a volume knob on the front of an
amplifier which is the same for all users. I listened to a friend's USB DAC 
from SymAudio a couple of weeks ago and was blown away
by the incredible audio from it. This little box contains a ton of software and 
its "user interface" is a USB plug on one end and a
pair of RCA jacks on the other. Users can drive it from iTunes or any number of 
other media player devices. As the device's "UI" is
actually just wires and some plugs, a blind person can write the code inside it 
without any graphical elements even in the IDE.

Similar programs include everything from controlling fuel injectors on 
automobiles to a Tassimo coffee maker. There are a lot of
jobs in this space and they are often very high paying positions.

cdh





                Hi Guys,
        In all honesty, I feel that you have a fighting chance.
                In the Windows, Microsoft world, there is Jamal's stuff. I 
don't know enough about how it all works to recommend the
exact set up that might be best, but I'm sure Jamal would chime in here. Look 
at the packages called lbc, IniForm, HomerJacs, and
LBC.Net.
        In the other stuff area, you have these. I would think that in the Java 
world, you would have Swing, with various kinds of
layout mechanisms, and SWT, with all of its power. With languages like Python, 
C++, and Perl, you'd have the WX stuff at your
disposal.
                I say don't give up, and report back how you are doing so that 
we can help you through it. Don't worry, I'll be
doing what I'm talking about before long.
                Jim
        Jim Homme,
        Usability Services,
        Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
        Internal recipients,  Read my accessibility blog 
<http://mysites.highmark.com/personal/lidikki/Blog/default.aspx> . Discuss
accessibility here 
<http://collaborate.highmark.com/COP/technical/accessibility/default.aspx> 
.Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and
accessibility advice 
<http://collaborate.highmark.com/COP/technical/accessibility/Accessibility%20Wiki/Forms/AllPages.aspx>
 
                From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kerneels
Roos
        Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 11:08 AM
        To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
        Subject: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?
        This message was posted to a reply on the long thread about Oracle 
accessibility concerns involving Java. I thought I'd post
it again with a new subject, since it deviates from the original topic.
        
        
         I can't agree more your this statement Jay. As much as all of us want 
to create nice GUIs, it is really such such a battel
for someone that can't see properly, if you are honest with yourself. I would 
say that the FB examples are indicative of this, since
the FB concept is very simple yet for a visually impaired person to build a GUI 
 is a massive task in all fairness. 
        
        I didn't  catch the whole story with the recent critisism of the FB 
examples, but I can understand why a professor for
example would ridicule having the logic and presentation code (GUI code) all in 
one file. (or any other aspect of the FB stuff that
servce the purpose of aiding blind people) It's a poor design choice for 
anything but an example, but then, that's exactly what the
FB examples are -- tools to show you simple GUI creation in various programming 
languages. Personally I think it's great and I
commend all the contributors. It's a service to the community, but sighted 
people will struggle to see it's worth. 
        
        We must understand, for a fully sighted person, building GUIs is 
rediculously easy and straight forward. No matter what kind
of accessible GUI designer tools there might be in future, the playing field 
will never be level when it comes to anything graphic.
Yet there is no reason for despair, since there are numerous other areas in 
computer sciense and programming in particular where a
blind person could compete well and I'm speculating that there might even be 
areas where having no or little sight might aid you! 
        
        One particular small project I worked on while studying at university 
springs to mind. It was a little applet developed with
AWT or Swing that saved your bookmarks in a tree structure. The professor was a 
gracious man, and he gave us a nice score for the
project, but he stepped in after we did our presentation and basically told the 
 class that we really did spend much time on this
and that we didn't just download it from the net or something... He did this, I 
think, because our project was fairly inferiour
graphic wise compaired to the elaborate graphics the other student's projects 
sported even though I spent hours and hours on the
little GUI side of the software. 
        
        It's heart breaking for me when I read how hard blind folks try and 
make appealing graphical interfaces, or when I read
about the struggles some software causes blind guys. It's commendable to see 
how people cope with the worst of situations, but there
are also better areas to focus on,, areas where you'll be far more productive 
and make a better impact . 
        
        It's a complex topic for me and there are much to say about it. What 
I'm wondering is if it is not a good time to review the
way disabled people are trained up to believe that interaction with computers 
should commence in the generally accepted form of
having a "normal" or sighted OS with all highly graphical applications with a 
rediculously advanced and complex and expensive screen
reader stuck on top of it all. 
        
        And then, on the other hand, how we can identify better software 
development areas to focus on where blindness poses less of
an obsticle. Also, how we can advance in those areas and properly promote 
ourselves and our value to a software development shop
developing for the general public or business where accessibility is of little 
concern. Myself for one have a little bit of a
complex when think of all my years experience as a software developer and yet 
the difficulty with which I'm faced with when having
to develop a GUI, and how someone with far less experience than myself could 
code a GUI so much faster and better looking in less
time and with less effort. 
        
        My challenge to the list; let's draw up a specification of areas in 
programming and computer science where visually impaired
people can excell at in the modern age where graphics does play such a ever 
increasingly important part. 
        
        Armed with such a specification we'll be in the right position to start 
and focus efforts on training ourselves up in those
areas and then sharing knowledge and awareness so that a wel trained blind 
programmer (in the identified fields) could approach any
development house with confidence of his / her abilities and value she / he 
will add to a company. 
        
        Kerneels 
        
        On 10/13/2010 12:31 AM, Jay Macarty wrote: 
        
        
        I would advise spending time on web development with java on the server 
side. Either that or headless java development such
as web services. Both directions can allow a person to grow into a very strong 
java developer with very marketable skill sets
without fighting the constant battle of either swing accessibility or trying to 
gain skills in an API, swt, which may have somewhat
limited acceptence in a large traditional java shop. Personally, I love swt; 
however, as a tech lead, I can't push it into a project
here because it is not an accepted technology by our enterprise architects. 
        
        ----- Original Message ----- From: "Homme, 
James"<james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx> <mailto:james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>  
        To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
<mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>  
        Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 7:02 AM 
        Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO 
        
        
        Hi Jay, 
        Would you advise someone new to Java to spend more time on Swing, SWT, 
or web? 
        
        Thanks. 
        
        Jim 
        
        Jim Homme, 
        Usability Services, 
        Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme 
        Internal recipients,  Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility 
here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and
accessibility advice 
        
        
        -----Original Message----- 
        From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jay Macarty 
        Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 3:31 PM 
        To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
        Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO 
        
        Over the past couple of years, I have been involved in hiring java 
        developers several times. One of the things we have had trouble with is 
        finding people with swing experience. It seems that, while there are 
        certainly a number of applications still using swing heavily, a lot of 
java 
        development is moving away from swing based GUI interfaces to using web 
        based front-ends. Perhaps, Oracle thinks that a declining interest in 
using 
        swing as a UI means they don't need to spend as much effort on swing 
        accessibility but that thought path can certainly leave those of us who 
        still need access to heavily swing based apps in a spot. 
        
        
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: "Stanzel, Susan - Kansas City, MO" <susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx> 
<mailto:susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx>  
        To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
<mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>  
        Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 8:11 PM 
        Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO 
        
        
        Hi Listers, 
        
        I have not stepped into this until now. I would hope that needing 
government 
        contracts in the United States would have some affect on all this. I 
have 
        asked people about swing and I am told it isn't used very much because 
there 
        is newer technology out there. I am not an experienced Java programmer 
so 
        maybe the rest of you will know more than I do. I know we use Struts at 
my 
        building for creation of web projects. If I have just made a fool of 
myself, 
        it's not the first time and won't be the last. (grin). 
        
        Susie Stanzel 
        
        -----Original Message----- 
        From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
        [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The Elf 
        Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 7:08 PM 
        To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
        Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO 
        
        hey, this is my usual line, "beat them into submission" lol 
        
        or hound,or pummel,  or... 
        
        elf 
        Moderator, Blind Access Help 
        Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises 
        Specialists in customized computers and peripherals 
        - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn! 
        www.alacorncomputer.com 
        proprietor, The Grab Bag, 
        for blind computer users and programmers 
        http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com 
        
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx> <mailto:sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>  
        To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
<mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>  
        Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 10:14 AM 
        Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO 
        
        
        
        
        Wow, it only took like 15 emails on the subject, but finally the voice 
of 
        reason has made itself known. 
        
        Ken, I completely agree. Now is the time to pressure them into actually 
        not abandoning it. 
        
        Take care, 
        Sina 
        
        ________________________________ 
        
        From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
        [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry 
        Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 1:10 AM 
        To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
        Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO 
        
        
        
        If this is true then it's not time to tell people to stay away.  It's 
time 
        to get people to get active and start emailing and 
        calling them till they do support it.  If we stay away we lose what 
        accessibility was there. 
        
        
        
        Ken 
        
        
        
        
        
        From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
        [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Storm 
Dragon 
        Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 11:09 PM 
        To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
        Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO 
        
        
        
        Hi, 
        I would not doubt it for one second. They dropped the ball on Linux 
        accessibility pretty much first thing when they took over Sun. 
        It's probably a good idea, if you have influence over software 
decisions, 
        to encourage companies, clients, and friends to stay far 
        far away from Oracle and their software. I was even going to get rid of 
        Open Office but fortunately the version used in Ubuntu is a 
        fork so not subject to them. unless, that is, they somehow manage to 
win 
        their evil attack on Google. If that happens, who knows who 
        they will attack next. Keep your fingers crossed, and maybe the open 
        source community will keep the Bridge going, Orca is still 
        alive and well after all. 
        Storm 
        
        -- 
        
        
        Registered Linux user number 508465: 
        http://counter.li.org/ 
        My blog, Thoughts of a Dragon: 
        http://www.stormdragon.us/ 
        Get yourself a Frostbox: 
        http://www.frostbitesystems.com/ 
        
        
        On Sat, 2010-10-09 at 08:15 +0530, prateek aggarwal wrote: 
        
        
        oh know, 
        i wish its just a rumor. 
        if its ever going to be true, i'll be so said. 
        
        regards, 
        prateek agarwal. 
        
        
        
        On 10/9/10, Jamal Mazrui <empower@xxxxxxxxx> <mailto:empower@xxxxxxxxx> 
 wrote: 
        
        

        I heard from a good source today that Oracle has decided to discontinue 
        support for the Java Access Bridge (and no alternative is planned).  I 
        would be glad to be convinced otherwise.  If anyone has information 
        regarding this topic, please share. 
        
        Jamal 
        
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                -- 
        Kerneels Roos 
        Cell: +27 (0)82 309 1998 
        Skype: cornelis.roos 
        
        "Common Sense" is not "Common Practice" . 
        
        "The Strawberry Jam Law: 
          The wider you spread it, the thinner it gets..." 
           -- from the Java Specialist Newsletter, from a book on consulting.

        

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