Hi, I think that we all would tend to recommend what works for us. So Jess, if you're still slogging through all of these messages, I hope you get something that will help out of all of this. Jim Jim Homme, Usability Services, Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jackie McBride Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 11:10 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: I feel like giving up on programming altogether! Well, Ken, as I see it, programming is divided into 2 major areas: 1) Learning to think/problem-solve in the way the computer does; & then 2) Learning whatever language u need that will fit the sort of applications you're coding. It's a tough road to do both at the same time, & it's why I recommend learning something easier at first, e.g., basic, Python, etc. Once folks kind of get the concepts of how to use the compiler/interpreter & instruct the computer to do what they want, then the next logical progression is something like C. But I think learning C initially is rather like what my dad did to me when I was 4--threw me into Lake Michigan in 62 degree water over my head. Not fun. &, no, it did not teach me to swim any better or any earlier, believe me. In retrospect, I rather like the way I approached things--I taught myself Basic, which I used (& rather effectively, I might add) to sort patient visits by date for tax purposes when I was in practice because my crazy billing program didn't. Then I went on to learn C. It worked well. That is not to say it will work well for others. Then I got some formal programming training, & I believe what I'd taught myself previously stood me in very good stead for learning that. Each person has to go his/her own way, I guess, but I think a gentler intro than C is more beneficial for those who are self-taught. Just my $.02--& what do I know? You're the 1 making a living at it, not mwa. On 6/30/10, Ken Perry <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > Actually I know someone who does professional programming who has his degree > in electronics and only took two coding classes which he could have taught > when he took hem. College is not all it's cracked up to be but that is > another argument. > > I understand that Jess is using vs but that don't mean he or she has to. In > fact I ended up having to learn the Microsoft build system because the VS > ide wouldn't do the cross compile system I wanted it to so I had to get out > of VS and create the build xml file by hand which you can do. Heck for that > matter you can code in VB by hand and actually use a compiler which gets you > out of the graphical IDE and lets you learn to code. In fact you can find a > few examples of this up on the fruit basket page. > > Ken > > -----Original Message----- > From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of RicksPlace > Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 10:29 PM > To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: Re: I feel like giving up on programming altogether! > > Hi Ken: Jes said he is working in the VS IDE already. I don't know if it is > for school, for work or just for fun. OK, let me set my point clear... A > person needs to get a good University Education in Computer Programming or a > > related field to work in that arena. You can not become a Professional > Programmer by playing with Visual Studio. You can, however, get help on list > > with Visual Studio and it is fine, if you have the patients, for learning to > > do some programming as a hobbyist. The things we never talk about to nubes > is the process of learning to turn a step by step analysis of solving > business, engineering or technical problems into computer code. That is > where a University Education comes in.. Once that skill is mastered then it > becomes a matter of learning a Programming Language and coding up a > solution. Using a IDE is just a time saving step after you have done the > former learning processes. When I see someone asking to learn to become a > Computer Programmer by reading books and learning on their own I assume they > > are trying to do it as a hobby. I can't imagine anyone in their right mind > would seriously consider trying to learn to become a Professional Computer > Programmer and compete in the Job Market without a formal education - it > just seems like so much nonsense. There might be one or two out there who > did it that way but 99+ percent have taken University Courses if they work > in the field. Jes said he was working on a project in VS IDE, having > problems and the process I outlined just touched bases with the things he > needed to ensure he did, and did correctly, to get his project up and > running. The blurb about learning Programming ie... IPO, was just to start > the brain working in thinking about inputs, outputs and Processing as 3 > things that need to be done, sigh, and even that is diferent in today's OOP > world. > Rick USA. > Message ----- > From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 9:47 PM > Subject: RE: I feel like giving up on programming altogether! > > >> >> >> I am sorry Rick but this is what is wrong with most coders coming out of >> college now days. They code by the drop button and create if statement >> method. Have you actually looked at Job listings. A person that learns >> to >> code the way you just laid out whether they be sited or blind will be the >> bottom of the barrel. Some jobs asks for Visual studio but a monkey can >> make a form and add an if statement to it to make a button do something. >> If >> a person wants to be a coder they need to be make sure they are not >> getting >> themselves where they can be put out by some new AI programming language >> that can make the forms straight from a design chart created by a >> secretary. That type of coding can be done by anyone. >> >> Colleges switched to GUI environments to make money because any sited >> person >> can create a half baked program with them. They did the same thing to the >> electronics field with places like ITT and other tech schools that taught >> half baked electronics. Now I am not saying a good electronics person or >> a >> good coder can't come from the easy road what I am saying is it is much >> more >> unlikely that one will. >> >> If on the other hand you start with a compiled language or an assembled >> language you will understand what is going on. You shouldn't even worry >> about the GUI till you know how programs are logically put together and >> why. >> Otherwise we are going to need that 48 core computer and 12 TB of ram just >> to run the next text editor because we as coders are getting slipperier >> and >> messier because we don't understand what is going on under the engine. >> >> Anyway I have ranted enough but a person that is just getting started >> would >> be better to start in straight C and learn what memory was, how to deal >> with >> pointers, and understand what a register is because in the long run if >> you're really going to be a coder not a monkey dialog maker you will need >> that information and if you think you have become a coder by creating some >> monkey dialogs you will find yourself very screwed when you take that job >> you are not even close to ready for. >> >> Ken >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of RicksPlace >> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 9:18 PM >> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> Subject: Re: I feel like giving up on programming altogether! >> >> First, Programming in today's world is a world apart from where we use to >> be. It is so much simpler in some ways and light years more complex in >> other >> >> ways. Programming in the Visual Studio IDE takes a large learning curve. >> You >> >> need to install and configure that puppy. Fail to do this and you will be >> hearing more junk and losing focus more than an intrevert at a rock >> concert. >> >> That is a pain itself. Then, if you run JAWS you need to configure JAWS, >> again better get it right. Then after you get all that done you can open >> the >> >> IDE and look at a bunch of buttons and dialogs that have seemingly nothing >> to do with creating a computer program using computer statements. And, God >> Forbid, You try and download and install Sql Server Express, well, you >> will >> be headed for gray hair if you are one of the lucky few who get that far. >> You absolutely need to configure the IDE for accessibility, pick the >> ssimpelest language, vb.net, to start with and create your first Hello >> World >> >> Form from the Form1 file. That is after you create a new project of the >> Windows Forms type. Then you can drop a couple of buttons, a textbox or 2 >> on >> >> the Form1 designer, set their properties and code the related VB Code for >> the Button Click Events and mess with the Text Properties of the >> TextBoxes. >> If you get that far you will be on your way to learning to Program in >> Visual >> >> Studio. I would start with the Vb.net Express module since it does not >> have >> all the other languages and is just a little cleaner to start with. Once >> you >> >> get the nack of making a form do things like Display Output to a user, >> Read >> Inputs from a user and do some Processing on the input, you have the basic >> understanding of what computer programming is really about IPO, Input / >> Process / Output. If you jump into C++, Visual Studio IDE and a DB you are >> jumping out of an airplane and flapping as hard as you can but you can >> pretty much guess the final result. But, Give Up? Did We Give Up when the >> Germans Bombed Pearl Harbor? No, when the going gets tough - the tough ask >> questions on list and follow up with more work! >> Rick USA >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jes" <theeternalkid@xxxxxxxxx> >> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 1:59 PM >> Subject: I feel like giving up on programming altogether! >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> All I get when using visual studio are nothing but errors! I just want to >> be >> >> able to write a program and have it work! Just once! But no. All I get are >> errors! So what's the use in even trying? Encouragement needed badly! >> Thanks. >> Jes >> >> __________ >> View the list's information and change your settings at >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >> >> __________ >> View the list's information and change your settings at >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >> >> __________ >> View the list's information and change your settings at >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >> > > __________ > View the list's information and change your settings at > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind > > __________ > View the list's information and change your settings at > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind > > -- Change the world--1 deed at a time Jackie McBride Scripting Classes: http://jawsscripting.lonsdalemedia.org homePage: www.abletec.serverheaven.net For technophobes: www.technophoeb.com __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are intended solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and then delete it. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this e-mail without the author's prior permission. The views expressed in this e-mail message do not necessarily represent the views of Highmark Inc., its subsidiaries, or affiliates. __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind