Re: Good resource for beginning programmers

  • From: "qubit" <lauraeaves@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 10:52:02 -0600

Hey ty, me too. thanks.
--le
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 11:46 PM
Subject: RE: Good resource for beginning programmers


Tyler, can you forward that off list email along?

Take care,
Sina
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of black ares
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 11:05 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Good resource for beginning programmers

can I have those papers too?
matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 10:46 PM
Subject: RE: Good resource for beginning programmers


> Sure, I can send you some papers, including one of the ones I published in
> that space.
>
> I'll send those to you off line. I warn you that it requires a good
> understanding of operating systems, because the authors only get
> 10 pages, double column, 9 point font, and they don't waste time
> explaining what a page fault handler does, but know that anything
> you don't understand, you can simply ask about or look up in Wikipedia.
>
> Now, you did mention one thing that I'd like to touch on. You mentioned
> damaging the hard drive. Damaging it without root privilege
> might be a bit tricky, although possible of course, but damaging the data
> on it could be very likely ... You write 0's to the wrong
> places using a raw enough addressing mode, and you can corrupt file
> systems and do all sorts of nasty stuff.
>
> So be careful with disk IO, as corrupting data is doable if you're not
> careful.
>
> As far as being scared of c++, I would say that I'm scared of a hammer
> when some crazy person is aiming it at my head; otherwise, I
> use it to construct things made out of wood and nails, so a tool is a tool
> is a tool., is the moral of that particular metaphor.
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Littlefield,
> Tyler
> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 3:34 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Good resource for beginning programmers
>
> Awesome. Well, the point was to keep the OP from getting scared away from
> c++ in the thought that as alix posted, you could ruen
> your harddrive, bla bla. On another note, I am kind of curious about some
> of these attacks you talked about. Is there a good place
> to learn about them? I can understand the page fault handler; I'd assume
> you'd just do whatever you want then call the one before or
> whatever, but I'd like to learn a lot more of the theory behind the
> attacks, try the code on a box that I can afford to crash a time
> or 10, etc.
>
> On 11/18/2010 1:31 PM, Sina Bahram wrote:
>> Oh for sure.
>>
>> Otherwise, all you're going to do is simply crash your own program.
>> It's hard to even get a old fashioned blue screen anymore, much less
>> accidentally corrupt someone else's address space.
>>
>> Take care,
>> Sina
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
>> Littlefield, Tyler
>> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 3:28 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: Good resource for beginning programmers
>>
>> Hahaha. That sounds fun. I guess the point I'm trying to make: you
>> have to intentionally try to get to this point. You can do these lovely
>> things, but in order to get there, you have to knowingly
> escolate privileges, inject code, whatever.
>> On 11/18/2010 1:24 PM, Sina Bahram wrote:
>>> Nope, none of them require API's.
>>>
>>> You can do some really weird things with privilege escalation, and
>>> then it's all over. Jump to lib attacks, return oriented programming,
>>> jump oriented programming, basic stack smashing, basic heap
>>> overflows, dll injection, ring -1, -2, and -3 level attacks depending
>> on virtualization technologies being used, page table corruption attacks,
>> chain of trust invalidation, etc, etc, etc.
>>> That's only the latest stuff. You'd be amazed how many attacks from
>>> pre 2005 still work. For example, you overwrite the interrupt
>>> descriptor table, grab some debug registers, point one of them at
>>> your page fault exception handler, and it's over ... There is no
>> way to detect that sucker, no matter how good your antivirus is.
>>> Take care,
>>> Sina
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
>>> Littlefield, Tyler
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 3:18 PM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: Re: Good resource for beginning programmers
>>>
>>> Well, you need to go through an API usually, no? It's not going to
>>> happen with a dangling pointer in a normal app.
>>> On 11/18/2010 1:16 PM, Sina Bahram wrote:
>>>> Not hard at all, just minorly annoying.
>>>>
>>>> Take care,
>>>> Sina
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
>>>> Littlefield, Tyler
>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 3:04 PM
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: Re: Good resource for beginning programmers
>>>>
>>>> That's what I was getting at; the whole virtual addressing and stuff.
>>>> He was making it sound as if:
>>>> int i[10]
>>>> i[10]=300
>>>> Was going to make things go boom. :) I jus didn't want the OP to be
>>>> scared off. Windows and *nix both have virtual addressing, so accessing
>>>> bob's process from joe's process is fairly hard.
>>>> On 11/18/2010 12:57 PM, qubit wrote:
>>>>> Hi Ty -- I am not sure about windows so take this with a grain of
>>>>> salt, but it is true that an OS does have some protections, such as
>>>>> preventing writing to someone else's virtual memory, to guard
>>>>> against malware.  However a truely pathological C++ program can use
>>>>> pointers to do some interesting things with stack frames that will
>>>>> cause a lot of very strange behavior.
>>>>> But no, it won't go outside the process's virtual space, fortunately.
>>>>> And perhaps it varies with the OS.
>>>>> Keep in mind though that a debugger is just a program, and needs to
>>>>> have the ability to control a process and therefore needs to be
>>>>> able to write to addresses that are otherwise protected.
>>>>> I particularly enjoyed debugger development when I was working in
>>>>> language support.  It is fascinating to me to see how a process is
>>>>> implemented.
>>>>> --le
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler"<tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> To:<programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 7:32 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: Good resource for beginning programmers
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You're making c++ sound way way to dangerous. If you mess up with a
>>>>> pointer, unless you're programming at a way way low level and
>>>>> directly accessing the harddrive, you're not going to trash anything.
>>>>> You have access to memory, but like I said before when you went off
>>>>> on this "c++ can blow up the world," thing, the OS protects
>>>>> programmers from themselves. Or sort of, anyway.
>>>>> On 11/17/2010 6:20 PM, Alex Midence wrote:
>>>>>> Good lord, no!  php might be written in c++ but, I promise you
>>>>>> that you can not do the same things.  Php won't have stuff like
>>>>>> template metaprogramming, generic programming nor will it compile
>>>>>> right down to binary like c++.  If you write stuff in c++, it runs
>>>>>> lightning fast.
>>>>>> I don't know the syntax to php but, I'm pretty sure it's too
>>>>>> different from c++ to be concsidered a dialect.  Python is
>>>>>> definitely nothing like c in its syntax.  And, you could never
>>>>>> program a driver in Python.  It would take forever if it runs at
>>>>>> all.  They are not dialects of the languages they are written in.
>>>>>> I wish someone who was a bonified computer scientist could jump in
>>>>>> and explain this in terms more fitting.  Scripting languages are used
>>>>>> primarily for tweaking.
>>>>>> Look at the Jaws scripting language, for instance.  Languages like
>>>>>> Python and lua are used to customize applicatiosn written in stuff
>>>>>> like c++ so that they don't have to rewrite the whole app and
>>>>>> recompile it just for a few modifications.  It's hard to explain.
>>>>>> Honestly, you will just have to do some research until you find
>>>>>> something that explains it to you in a way that will make sense to
>>>>>> you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, the lines between some scripting languages and programming
>>>>>> languages are becoming blurred but the great yawning chasm that
>>>>>> will never be crossed is still the interpreted versus compiled chasm.
>>>>>> You might technically be able to write an application from the
>>>>>> ground up in pure Python but, I promise you that if that thing
>>>>>> goes toe to toe with another version of the same application
>>>>>> written in
>>>>>> c++, it will lose every time.  By the time the Python app is done
>>>>>> printing out its welcome message, the c++ app has done what was asked
>>>>>> of it and closed.
>>>>>>       This is because there are too many layers between the app
>>>>>> and the binary code for it.  It's first got to go through the
>>>>>> interpreter which then puts it into binary.  The app written in
>>>>>> c++ runs right on the system itself.  You have to go to something
>>>>>> like c or asm to get lower level.  The isntructions to the
>>>>>> computer don't have to be translated before execution.  The day
>>>>>> when what you mention with regard to making something like c++
>>>>>> available to the nonprogrammer is way way far off in the future if it
>>>>>> will ever come.
>>>>>> I frandkly hope it doesn't  The thought of some nonprogrammers I
>>>>>> know with acces to that kind of computing power is frightening.  I
>>>>>> mean, you can tell the computer exactly what to do right down to
>>>>>> what goes where in each individual piece of memory.  There are no
>>>>>> shortcuts in that language.
>>>>>> And, there shouldn't be.  It gives you so many chances to shoot
>>>>>> yourself in the foot that if you aren't down in the inner workings
>>>>>> of it, as it were, under the proverbial hood, you won't be able to
>>>>>> control what it does.  You could realistically totally trash a
>>>>>> hard drive if you screw up just right with pointers and if you do
>>>>>> something like overflowing an array of 10 items with say 100 or
>>>>>> something like that.  I hear you can do some serious damage with
>>>>>> stuff like that.
>>>>>> Can't see that kind of damage being caused by php or python.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Alex M
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/17/10, Client Services<operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>      wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi-
>>>>>>> Thank you for that explanation.
>>>>>>> Seems like the line between programming and scripting languages
>>>>>>> is getting blurred.
>>>>>>> Are scripting languages becoming as powerful as a programming
>>>>>>> language?
>>>>>>> Or
>>>>>>> do they just bring the best out of the programming language they
>>>>>>> are written in.
>>>>>>> If PHP and Python are written in C and C++, then why can't they
>>>>>>> make PHP and Python to be more like a CMS and useable by
>>>>>>> non-programmers?
>>>>>>> In summary, if I have this correct, a scripting language is
>>>>>>> actually written in a programming language and is just a way of
>>>>>>> accessing and using the given programming language.
>>>>>>> When I use PHP and Python, I am actually using C and C++, just in
>>>>>>> a unique dialect?  That is assuming Python and PHP are written in
>>>>>>> C or
>>>>>>> C++.
>>>>>>> So somehow, PHP and Python were supposed to make C or what ever
>>>>>>> programming language easier to use?
>>>>>>> Is this accurate?
>>>>>>> Sorry for the dumb questions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> H.R. Soltani
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>> Christopher
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 6:24 PM
>>>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Good resource for beginning programmers
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is one of my pet peeves.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A programming language is a language that is, in the majority of
>>>>>>> the cases, compiled to native machine code -and- used for
>>>>>>> application development (i.e. C, C++, D) A scripting language is
>>>>>>> a language that is, in the majority of the cases, interpreted
>>>>>>> -and- used to control applications, and sometimes application
>>>>>>> development in general (i.e.
>>>>>>> Python, PHP, Ruby, AutoIT, etc.) Java was not a true programming
>>>>>>> language until recently when it decided to compile its bytecode
>>>>>>> on-the-fly. C# has always been a programming language because it
>>>>>>> has always compiled its MSIL on-the-fly. PHP and Python are both
>>>>>>> written in C and are both interpreted. (PHP might be written in
>>>>>>> C++.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I refuse to call a non-compiled language a programming language,
>>>>>>> regardless of the language.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, here is a simple test to see what is a programming language
>>>>>>> and what is a scripting language.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. Can you write a full application in the language? If yes, then
>>>>>>> is the language compiled? If yes, then it is a programming language.
>>>>>>> 2. Can you write a full application in the language? If yes, then
>>>>>>> is the language compiled? If no, then it is a scripting language.
>>>>>>> 3. Can you write a full application in the language? If no, then
>>>>>>> it is a scripting language.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 11/17/2010 2:24 PM, Alex Midence wrote:
>>>>>>>> I am not at a stage in my learning where I can do well at
>>>>>>>> explaining this so, I have provided some links for you to explore:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Scripting language
>>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scripting_language
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Programming language:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_language
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Be warned:  This will create more questions for you.  Have fun!!!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Alex M
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 11/17/10, Client Services<operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hi-
>>>>>>>>> What is the difference between a scripting language and a
>>>>>>>>> programming language?
>>>>>>>>> So if PHP and Python are scripting languages, what programming
>>>>>>>>> language
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>> they written in?
>>>>>>>>> And why are they called scripting languages?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> H.R. Soltani
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>>>> Alex Midence
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 3:52 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Good resource for beginning programmers
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You've got scripting languages and programming languages there.
>>>>>>>>> Javascript is client side scripting.  Websites run scripts on
>>>>>>>>> the visitor's machine to dynamically change themselves
>>>>>>>>> according to stimuli.  Php is a scripting language that does
>>>>>>>>> dynamic webpage changing among other things from the server
>>>>>>>>> side.  It is used in conjunction with database solutions like my
>>>>>>>>> sql and the like.
>>>>>>>>> Java and C are both programming languages.  Java is a high
>>>>>>>>> level object-oriented language that runs on a virtual machine.
>>>>>>>>> It is used to create applets and web apps for all sorts of
>>>>>>>>> functions.
>>>>>>>>> Java is also used to create desktop  applicaitons like, for
>>>>>>>>> instance, Eclipse, Open Office, and things of that nature.  C
>>>>>>>>> is a low-level procedural programming language that is used for
>>>>>>>>> desktop aplications and low-level programming such as drivers,
>>>>>>>>> utilities and the like.
>>>>>>>>> Certain platforms are also written in C like, for instance,
>>>>>>>>> Windoes is in C.  I believe Gnome was also written in C.  I
>>>>>>>>> went into this detail because your post indicated that you
>>>>>>>>> thought these were all web development languages and they are not.
>>>>>>>>> Python is a scripting language that can do a lot of the same
>>>>>>>>> things programming languages can do and has a reputation for
>>>>>>>>> being easy to learn and fostering rapid development.  An
>>>>>>>>> applications that php could not create, IMHO is a screen reader.
>>>>>>>>> Python was used to create two of them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hope that helps,
>>>>>>>>> Alex M
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 11/17/10, Client Services<operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Hi everybody-
>>>>>>>>>> I am trying to decide where to start as far as learning
>>>>>>>>>> programming.
>>>>>>>>>> I decided I would focus on 1. PHP, 2. JavaScript, 3. Java, 4.
>>>>>>>>>> C I figured these are being used the most in web development
>>>>>>>>>> and custom applications. So, where does Python come in?  How
>>>>>>>>>> would you compare
>>>>>>> Python
>>>>>>>>>> with Java, PHP, and C??
>>>>>>>>>> Can anybody give me an example of what cannot be developed in
>>>>>>>>>> PHP which
>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>> be developed in Python?
>>>>>>>>>> Or how about Java vs Python if PHP is to lowly?  I have just
>>>>>>>>>> heard PHP
>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>> limitations.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> H.R. Soltani
>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________
>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>
>
>
> -- 
>
> Thanks,
> Ty
>
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>

__________
View the list's information and change your settings at
//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind

__________
View the list's information and change your settings at
//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind

__________
View the list's information and change your settings at 
//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind

Other related posts:

  1. Home
  2. programmingblind
  3. Archive
  4. 11-2010