RE: Getting started learning VB6

Hi Alex,
Right on, man. If you show that you are comfortable with who you are, they 
can't help but be OK with it. Now, all I need to do is remember who I am. Stuff 
starts going when you turn 50. :)

Jim

Jim Homme,
Usability Services,
Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
Internal recipients,  Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility here. 
Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice


-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alex Midence
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 11:07 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Getting started learning VB6

I will add another recommendation to that wonderful list which applies
in any setting or profession where you will need assistive tech:

For the love of God, do *not* act like your blindness is the pink
elephant in the room nobody wants to talk about but everyone can see.
I went to several interviewing workshops by my local disability
services providers and all seemed to advise that you focus on whether
or not you can do the job and try not to let them ask you about your
assistive tech needs or any of that.  It is a recipe for disaster and
disappointment.  I went through several places and got nowhere until I
grabbed a laptop, stuck a demo of Jaws on it ( it was my wife's laptop
and it was a demo because I couldn't afford my own Jaws at the time),
grabbed the old clunky braille display the state had loaned me and
took all of it to the interview with me.  I brought a cd with a burned
jaws demo on it for good measure.  I then opened the laptop up during
the interview and showed them how my system works.  I then offered to
look at theirs by installing a demo copy of my screen reader on one of
the computers which the IT people could then remove.  Many were
intrigued and let me do it.  IT folks love talking tech and non-IT
folks and IT ones alike get a kick out of refreshable braille and want
to put their hands on it.  I got the job and have been here for 6
years.  It was the first interview I did where I brought the blindness
issue into center stage.  Absolutely none of the other places I went
to in year-long search even called me to tell me I didn't get the job.
 They just sent me a letter. I think it's because the one burning
question they all wanted to ask me but could not due to legal
restrictions is:

"How are you going to do this if you are blind?  How would a blind
person do this job which I use my vision for?"

Telling them isn't good enough either.  YOu have to show them because
sighted people believe best when they see it.

Regards,
Alex M

On 2/16/11, Homme, James <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Hi Rick,
> Your assessment is correct in my view. I work for a company that recruits
> and hires people with disabilities. We do all we can to help people with
> disabilities get jobs. These are routinely requirements that our customers
> look for. We look at whether the person is qualified to do the job first,
> and the disability second, but qualifications must come first, or no-one
> wins. We simply can't hire anyone just because they have a disability. That
> would not help anyone. It wouldn't help them. It wouldn't help us or our
> customer. We all know that feeling sorry for ourselves does nothing but hold
> us back.
>
> I try to do what I can to help fellow people who are blind get hired. We've
> hired several people who are blind who have gone on and done very well in
> the corporate world, but we couldn't have hired them if they weren't already
> qualified. And qualified means what the industry says is qualified, no
> matter how much I jump up and down and scream. I just need to get over it
> and get qualified. Do I want the job more than I want to complain?
>
> Bottom line: Spend your energy on getting qualified as a coder, as an
> adaptive technology user, and learn to dress professionally, take care of
> your hygiene, act courteously and prefessionally in social situations, have
> good table manners, Smile even when you don't feel like it, have a nice,
> firm handshake, face the person you are talking to, keep complaints as much
> to a minimum as possible, be positive, and so on, and you should do OK. And
> if you need to vent here and there, I'm a good listener. <grin>
>
> Jim
>
>
> Jim Homme,
> Usability Services,
> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
> Internal recipients,  Read my accessibility
> blog<http://mysites.highmark.com/personal/lidikki/Blog/default.aspx>.
> Discuss accessibility
> here<http://collaborate.highmark.com/COP/technical/accessibility/default.aspx>.
> Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility
> advice<http://collaborate.highmark.com/COP/technical/accessibility/Accessibility%20Wiki/Forms/AllPages.aspx>
>
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of RicksPlace
> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 9:20 AM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Getting started learning VB6
>
> Hi: OK, lets play a game. You are the manager of a Human Resources
> Department at some company like IBM, GM or another Company or Government
> Agency.
> You have one job opening for a Computer Programmer. The job requires
> demonstrated skills inProgramming in Visual Studio using Sql Server in a
> Distributed Network environment. The applicant will be developing and
> maintaining a new Accounting System for the company and there will be 25
> other Programmers on the project so you will be working with advanced Design
> Tools, Testing Systems such as some Unit Testing software and advanced UML
> or other tools. Now, Mr Human Resource Manager... here are 2 applicants for
> this job that starts at $50,000 per year.
> First Applicant:
> I have a High School education but learned to write computer programs on my
> own over the past 2 years at home in my spare time. I have coded a checkbook
> balancing program using VB.net and CSharp. I Have managed to use Sql Server
> Express as the Database. I have coded my project using Notepad but not
> worked in Visual Studio much yet although I feel confident I can learn to
> work around any accessibility issues and learn to be productive in that
> Enterprise Level IDE environment.  For these reasons I feel quite qualified
> to help develop your International Acounting System in the Distributed
> Enterprise Level Environment you have described and feel I am the best
> person for the job.
> Second Applicant for same job:
> I have a BS in Computer Science with a Minor in Business Administration and
> Accounting. I have 2 years experience in Computer Programming using
> Enterprise Level Visual Studio and other Third Party Products.
> My Formal Education included several Programming Languages includeing VB.net
> and CSharp working in a Distributed Enterprise Level Visual Studio
> Environment.
> It also included using various File Management tools and Productivity tools
> such as Sql Server, various Sequential and Skip Sequential file management
> tools  and several other Programming languages such as JAVA and various
> Distributed Networking Languages and Networking Management tools. I have
> also worked in a International Distributed Enterprise level environment
> working for JP Morgan.Along with my classes in using advanced tools such as
> Unit Testing software, Enterprise Edition Project management tools, UML and
> advanced training in Modular Design and various communications interfaces
> with Mainframes, I have practical experience using these tools while with JP
> Morgan.
> I have several references from my University Instructors and JP Morgan
> Management regarding my qualifications for this job.
> For these reasons I feel quite qualified to help develop your International
> Acounting System in the Distributed Enterprise Level Environment you have
> described and feel I am the best person for the job.
> Now, Mr Human Resources Manager, after you interview perhaps another 50 or
> so applicants with the same or better credentials than the second candidate,
> exactly what chance of getting that $50,000 per year job do you think the
> first, blind, candidate has?
> If you would hire the first candidate you will not be the Human Resources
> Manager for long me thinks...
> The first candidate may be fine for the job but how will you know that? I
> would hire the person with 4 years education in Computer Science with a
> solid background in Communications, Programming, Math and all that jazz
> rather than a High Schooler with some background in home PCs. My family
> depends on my hiring the best candidate for the job and my best choice would
> be the second candidate, hands down.
> So, while it is cool to think of the luck of the draw in getting a job
> without a formal education it is not something I would recommend hanging
> your hat on. And, since my posts are about my recommendations, it is what it
> is and I recommend a formal education. If you can't handle a University
> Level program you will not be able to handle working in this field at any
> Professional Level unless you are very, very lucky. So, my recommendation
> remains... If you want to learn to program you can do it starting out with
> any simple programming language, perhaps vbscript or something simple and
> then moving into VB.net or CSharp either inside the IDE or just using the
> command line option as mentioned in prior posts. If you want to become a
> Professional, bite the bullet and  figure out some way to get some formal
> education..
> I don't know what else to say on this subject, that's all I have so I'll let
> it rest here. Others have other opinions but this is my opinion and I'm
> sticking to it.
> Remember, it's not only the programming language you learn but the other
> classes in English, foreign languages, Math, Science and other fields like
> Business, engineering, Logic and a set of diverse Computer related classes
> that you will have to offer an employer over someone without a formal
> education and those things weigh heavy in any decission to hire someone.
> Without the logic learning of various Math and Grammer classes you will
> always be lacking in those skills. If you can learn them at all it will not
> take twice as long, it will take at least 10 times as long and likely much
> longer than that.
> So that's all I have...
> Having been there, hiring advisor, this remains my opinion about a formal
> education versus AdHock learning without some level of post High School
> education...
> Getting a real, professional career is not a game of Space Invaders, it's a
> war and a formal education is your first line of weaponry. Go up against
> someone with superior weaponry and you are most likely to come out on the
> short end.
> Rick USA
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Kerneels Roos<mailto:kerneels@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 8:14 AM
> Subject: Re: Getting started learning VB6
>
> I would always promote formal education. Information Technology is one field
> where you could get professional without formal education, but I think it's
> a much tougher road and it will probably take you twice as long. Also,
> should you want to apply for a job where maths or a science background is
> required you be less appropriate than someone with a simple computer science
> degree.
>
> I would encourage anyone with an interest in Information Technology and a
> reasonable aptitude to try and study. It might open up a world to you that
> you never knew existed. I would also encourage experienced individuals
> without a formal education to investigate study options. A person with say
> 10 years programming experience could try do a Masters degree for example.
> In computer science they might just let you start there if you have a proven
> experience. Well, no matter what, any worth while university should give an
> experienced professional "discount" if you will, that will allow him or her
> to forgo some years of study. If they insist you start with Programming 101
> the whole place / department isn't worth their weight in construction
> rubble.
>
> A degree is however not the be all and end all, it's just a kick start if
> you like. I really respect people that for one reason or another were not
> able to study but yet gained enough experience to be competant at what they
> do. What I don't like is when people without formal education feel
> threatened by people who did study and then forever poo poo any kind of
> accademical idea, or anything that is a bit more complicated.
>
> The same goes for formally qualified individuals who can't appreciate
> simplicity and forever want to complicate things -- a sort of accademical /
> intellectual snobbery. None of the above will help in the real world.
>
> Since I was so fortunate to have been able to study at one of our country's
> finest and world class universities, I'll end with a quote you brilliant
> self-taught professionals might appreciate; it's a quote one professor
> found, smiling back at him, on the very last page of long exam answer sheet:
>
> "Those who can, do.
> Those who can't, teach."
>
> Kind regards,
> Kerneels
>
>
> On 2/16/2011 2:30 PM, Jacques Bosch wrote:
> I must be an exception to the rule. :)
> But I am definitely not advocating that you shouldn't go for a formal
> education if at all possible. I was only sharing my story. But then I really
> did work very hard at it and have read very many books and articles over the
> last 12 years, and had some good input from prior colleagues.
> However, I know several good professionals that have similar stories here in
> SA.
>
>
> Jacques
> On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 2:18 PM, RicksPlace
> <ofbgmail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:ofbgmail@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
> Hi: There is just no substitute for a quality formal education. Ask the
> folks who run the Human Resources Department at any major company or
> government agency. Perhaps overseas this is diferent. I have found the
> education systems quite diferent here and abroad as well as the hiring
> practices. Here in the United States there is no question that you need some
> University level education if you want to get a job with a Major Company
> where you might be able to work for many years and make a living wage for
> your family.There always exceptions but they are very, very rare.
> If you do not live in the U.S. or you think you can make a living
> contracting at world-wide competitive wages such as in India, Bangladesh,
> Romainia   or other Third World Developing countries then you can go for it.
> But, if you want a job with GM, Ford, BA, AAA, AA, MERC or any other major
> company or any Us or State or even Local Government agency you will need
> some level of formal education. Again there might be an exception to this,
> especially if you are blind, but it is not likely nor will you find any
> channels for professional advancement in your career.
> Rick USA
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jacques Bosch<mailto:jfbosch@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 6:48 AM
> Subject: Re: Getting started learning VB6
>
> Well, in most cases, probably. But I still maintain, not in all.
> But, hey, that is just me and MHO :)
> On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 1:26 PM, John G
> <jglists0@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:jglists0@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
> i think a clear distinction needs to be drawn between
> programming
> and
> engineering, the latter being a skill or a set of skills for which a formal
> training is essential.
>
>
> At 11:12 16/02/2011, you wrote:
> Hi: If you are considering becoming a Professional, there is no substitute
> for a formal education at a quality University. If you get a degree from a
> good State  University you will have the logic, cognitive and other skills
> to become a professional programmer. That is not something you are likely to
> do on your own. Perhaps someone else has done it but in the field they will
> require at least a degree, 2 or 4 years, and they will prefer experience as
> well. You can get the degree from the school and perhaps some experience
> there as well through the Financial Aid Center or by volunteering to help or
> even tutor other students. Everything you can get to put on a resume is what
> you want and sitting in your paren'ts basement playing with your computer is
> not likely to give you much to put on a resume.
> Rick USA
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Littlefield, Tyler"
> <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 4:51 PM
> Subject: Re: Getting started learning VB6
>
> .net comes with compilers, as far as I know. the user could learn a
> worth-while language, while still learning to program. You will not find to
> many job opportunities around that use Libertybasic, if any, as well as the
> fact that you need to pay for Libertybasic, and it still has an IDE as well
> as a really whacked syntax you need to learn. I believe (and many schools
> seem to be thinking along the same lines as I am), that the OP would be fine
> learning something like that.
> On 2/15/2011 1:20 PM, RicksPlace wrote:
> Hi: Mono sounds nice but I would not recommend it for a raw beginner.
> Actually I would not recommend VB.net to a raw programming beginner. A true
> beginner needs a really simple platform like that provided by some simple
> scripting language or a easy to learn platform like Power Basic or Liberty
> Basic. The concepts of how to write a program by solving problems one step
> at a time and then coding one statement, one step, at a time will be
> daunting enough. Trying to learn to navigate the VS IDE on top of that is
> too much to expect from a totally raw beginner. What is a variable? What
> types of variables are there? How would you open a door one step at a time?
> How would you balance your checkbook one step at a time and use algebra
> symbols in the example solution along with If and End If statements. These
> are the things that a beginner needs to learn. The syntax of a language are
> secondary to learning how to perform problem solving using math symbols and
> then conditional statements and pseudo code and finally using the syntax of
> an English Like language. Anyway, I recommend that if the beginner does not
> have any programming experience he try vbscript, Liberty Basic or perhaps
> Power Basic or something along those lines to learn about using computer
> code to solve real world problems before tackling a productivity tool like
> VB.net or Visual Studio. There are e-lists dedicated to these easier
> languages and when I was learning I found those folks really helpful and
> willing to do some hand-holding while I learned about things.
> Perhaps learning to do some simple applications using VbScript would be a
> good way to learn about variables, loops and conditional statements. Then
> move up to try something like VB.net.
> That way he would just write some computer statements in a text editor, run
> them as a simple script and learn about the basic programming concepts
> without worrying about the complexity of the Vb.net IDE which can be
> daunting in and of itself.
> Rick USA.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "DaShiell, Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1,
> 26" <jude.dashiell@xxxxxxxx<mailto:jude.dashiell@xxxxxxxx>>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 1:08 PM
> Subject: RE: Getting started learning VB6
>
>
> Mono differs from dot net in that version 2.0 of dot net and mono work
> together across several platforms.  Later versions of dot net are in the
> works for support on mono though.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]
> On Behalf Of Littlefield,
> Tyler
> Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 12:53
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: Getting started learning VB6
>
> Mono is not the same as the .net framework. Just get the express edition
>
> and you're good. Also: if you are a student, you get vs 2010 free, and
> Microsoft also gives out vs 2010 ultimate to MSDNAA members.
> On 2/15/2011 9:31 AM, DaShiell, Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26 wrote:
> There may not be enough money to use and learn dot net.  Fortunately,
> mono can be installed and will run on Windows as well as Linux and the
> price tag is $0.00.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]
> On Behalf Of DaShiell,
> Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26
> Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 11:28
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: RE: Getting started learning VB6
>
> No, not without knowing your visual status.  If you have memory of
> having had vision or better yet have a little useable vision your best
> bet would be to learn the language with windows forms.  If you have no
> memory of vision, then your best bet would be to learn the language
> using the console interface, and these are two completely different
> paths.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]
> On Behalf Of Otis D
> Blue
> Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 11:22
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Getting started learning VB6
>
> Hi,
>
> Could someone suggest where I can go to learn how to use VB as a
> beginner?
> I would like to get the understanding of the language and how to
> create
> software with it.
>
> Otis Blue
>
> Join Blind-entrepreneurs by subscribing at
> blind-entrepreneurs-subscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:blind-entrepreneurs-subscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Rules for the list is simple.
> Be respectful to everyone and no fial language.  It's ok to post
> useful
> information to the list that will benefit other users.  The list is
> mainly
> for discussion of business and owning a business.  Everyone is welcome
> to
> join and learn about opening a business.  Accessible software that's
> been
> developed by yourself or something you had made can be sold on the
> list
> if
> it's going to benefit other business owners.  Other than that, Thanks
> for
> joining the Blind-Entrepreneurs group.
>
>
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> http://www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> http://www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>
>
>
> --
>
> Thanks,
> Ty
>
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> http://www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> http://www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> http://www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>
>
>
> --
>
> Jacques Bosch
>
> Software Architecture and Development
> Independent Contractor
> Cell: +27 824711807 Fax: +27 86 504 4726
> E-Mail: jfbosch@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:jfbosch@xxxxxxxxx>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Jacques Bosch
>
> Software Architecture and Development
> Independent Contractor
> Cell: +27 824711807 Fax: +27 86 504 4726
> E-Mail: jfbosch@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:jfbosch@xxxxxxxxx>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Kerneels Roos
>
> Cell: +27 (0)82 309 1998
>
> Skype: cornelis.roos
>
>
>
> "There are only two kinds of programming languages in the world; those
> everyone complains about, and those nobody uses."
>
> ________________________________
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