RE: GNU Accessibility Statement Online

Just like virtualization, cloud computing is, at least, 50 years old, but 
really closer to 60.

Take care,
Sina

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Donald Marang
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 10:12 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: GNU Accessibility Statement Online

The technology is new, but it is reminiscent of the older days of IBM Mainframe 
computing with centralized control.

Don Marang

--------------------------------------------------
From: "qubit" <lauraeaves@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 9:49 PM
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: GNU Accessibility Statement Online

> So you view cloud as innovation -- it is interesting, I'll say that.  
> But that gets back to the agent string problem I mentioned in my last mail.
> If
> the string (or whatever it is) indicates a certain user needs a 
> special accessible web page, then that web author will be forced to 
> maintain 2 versions, and the whole segregation thing comes in again.
> It is as costly to maintain multiple webpages as it is to design one, 
> and most site authors will not do it readily, not because of lack of 
> caring, but for economic reasons.
> I will read on in my mail before commenting further, except to say 
> that we are talking about something different from the web as in the 
> 90s, so I need to read up on cloud before getting more involved in 
> this discussion.
> --le
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jared Wright" <wright.jaredm@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 4:45 PM
> Subject: Re: GNU Accessibility Statement Online
>
>
> I would think a part of optimizing any sort of cloud-based, widespread 
> accessibility framework would involve discerning which users were 
> using it so as to not send a lot of unnecessary accessibility-related 
> data back and forth with users who aren't utilizing it. As more and 
> more software goes into the cloud, it seems reasonable to assume that 
> accessibility features of those cloud-based applications might be 
> enabled or disabled on a per user level, and a user could seemingly be 
> asociated to whatever accessibility features they have chosen to enable.
> As the software goes into the cloud, some of the accessibility will 
> need to as well. It won't always be sufficient to have local access 
> solutions for dynamically changing applications on a web platform, 
> although most access solutions today are based locally.
>
> Just clarifying what I think the issue might be, personally I at this 
> juncture am simply willing to put my paranoia aside in favor of the 
> increased flexibility and potential of the cloud computing model. I 
> want privacy to be protected, but I'd rather not see technology 
> stagnate on account of it.
>
> Jared
>
>
>
>
>
> On 3/27/2010 4:29 PM, Sina Bahram wrote:
>> How are they easy to identify?
>>
>> I'm not sure why you are blanketly accepting this premis?
>>
>> How would you identify someone is using a screen reader or any other 
>> assistive technology if they are connecting via a web service, SSH, 
>> private protocol, or whatever.
>>
>> Take care,
>> Sina
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of qubit
>> Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 4:17 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: GNU Accessibility Statement Online
>>
>> Interesting argument.  My only question is, would I have access to my 
>> own data on the server?
>> Anyway, I agree privacy applies to everyone equally and not just 
>> persons with disabilities, but I think one difference is that the 
>> disabled persons accessing the server are easy to identify, and 
>> therefore there is an inherent privacy issue for them in particular.
>> I don't know if this is why the statement appears in the GAS.  
>> Perhaps Chris can answer.
>> --le
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Sina Bahram"<sbahram@xxxxxxxxx> 
>> To:<programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 2:28 PM
>> Subject: RE: GNU Accessibility Statement Online
>>
>>
>> With all due respect, I don't believe anyone deserves or needs 
>> privacy more so or less than someone else. Privacy should be an 
>> inalienable  right given to all individuals or none. So, I 
>> respectfully disagree that folks with disabilities are any different 
>> than those without disabilities, or certain ethnicity groups, and so forth.
>>
>> With respect to your seemingly circular argument that cloud computing 
>> somehow is more or less secure than self computing. I do not accept 
>> this as a reason nor as a valid excuse. It seems that your primary 
>> argument against cloud computing revolves around the decentralization 
>> of information from one's own ownership. In other words, you claim 
>> that because my data resides in Boston, New York, or Beijing, it is 
>> somehow less secure than if it is on a computer system I own.
>>
>> If you like, I can actually point you to several academic papers 
>> which have shown quite effective double blind security measures; for 
>> example, using something like pgp for communication layer, AES for 
>> data protection, anonymizers for privacy protection, and things such 
>> as the onion router for protection against tracing you down via 
>> TCP/IP access patterns.
>>
>> So I believe if appropriate measures are taken, it can actually be 
>> far better with respect to privacy concerns that one's data is not on 
>> computers that one owns. That way, it is not tied to a physical 
>> object that can be linked to you. To this end, I posit that keeping 
>> the data on your own computer can be just as, if not more so, harmful 
>> to privacy, and I disagree with the free software foundation's 
>> inaccurate advice to keep data in one easy to surveil, easy to 
>> capture, and easy to associate place. The techniques you suggest and 
>> advocate for can actually harm privacy related concerns, not advance 
>> them.
>>
>> All of this having been said, why are we mentioning it in an 
>> accessibility statement?
>>
>> Why?
>>
>> Just talk about accessibility, not about privacy.
>>
>> Take care,
>> Sina
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Chris 
>> Hofstader
>> Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 12:23 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: GNU Accessibility Statement Online
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I don't disagree and wanted the statement removed but it is a GNU 
>> statement and must, therefore, it needs to reflect the fundamentals 
>> of FSF.
>>
>> Also, people with disabilities need privacy more so than others as 
>> everything from insurance premiums to potential lawsuits may cause 
>> problems when and if someone gets access to their information.
>> Remember, a person with disability will cost more to insure so 
>> companies may be reluctant to hire them for that reason alone.
>>
>> If asked about this statement, though, we can point to Bill Gates 
>> who, in a COMDEX keynote address a bunch of years ago, he made a 
>> strong statement against server based programs, citing a value of 
>> putting computes in the hands of the individual and also raising 
>> privacy concerns.
>>
>> Also, there are people in jail in China because Yahoo turned over 
>> records stored on their servers. Why not expect that the US security 
>> infrastructure would be following all transactions on Skype, MSN, 
>> etc. giving them a lot of information into which they can cast a wide 
>> net.
>>
>> There's a lot of problems with server based systems ranging from 
>> privacy to a centralized data bank that can be mined for all sorts of 
>> reasons.
>>
>> Lastly, there is the question of who controls your computing and your 
>> data.
>> Local systems put you in charge while who knows what google might do 
>> with or to your information.
>>
>> Of course, I could be wrong.
>>
>> cdh
>> On Mar 27, 2010, at 11:03 AM, Sina Bahram wrote:
>>
>>
>>> The following statement really got to me:
>>>
>>> "and please don't invite users to do something on a server that they 
>>> could conceivably do on their own computers."
>>>
>>> I understand that Stallmann is one of the leading activists against 
>>> cloud computing, but why on earth are you allowing such an agenda to 
>>> creap into a statement on accessibility?
>>>
>>> In my opinion, this one statement completely undermines the rest of 
>>> the things you're trying to do.
>>>
>>> Take care,
>>> Sina
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Chris 
>>> Hofstader
>>> Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 9:00 AM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: GNU Accessibility Statement Online
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> For a couple of months, Richard Stallman and I have been working on 
>>> the GNU Accessibility Statement (GAS)  which takes a no nonsense 
>>> approach to endorsing the rights of people with disabilities as 
>>> regard software within the context of free software. I've never
>>>
>> read a more strongly worded statement from any organization regarding 
>> software and people with disabilities.
>>
>>> GAS also takes a strong stance on free software values but does not 
>>> endorse any specific license, although we would like people to use GPL.
>>>
>>> You can read the statement at:
>>> http://www.gnu.org/accessibility/accessibility.html
>>> and send comments to me that we can consider for future revisions of 
>>> the statement.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> cdh
>>>
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