Re: GNU Accessibility Statement Online

  • From: "qubit" <lauraeaves@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 05:59:07 -0500

Yes, but I am partly referring to experience in earlier days before such 
things were possible and extrapolating to future technologies. Did you know 
that amazon used to maintain parallel text-only pages for blind users? It 
was a nice try but obviously not a good solution.  They were always out of 
date.  Also, as someone else pointed out, if something needs to be turned on 
or off server side, then that could be a privacy concern.
Yes, accessibility has come a long way on the web.
--le

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "black ares" <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2010 1:29 AM
Subject: Re: GNU Accessibility Statement Online


why to maintain two version of webpages.
I do web development in a regular basis and I don't maintain two versions of
a page never.
When a user needs an accessible one, simply switch off the inaccessible
parts.
That could be done even in client side.
For exaemple, I am working now on a progect on joomla.
In joomla there is a plugin named make_me_accessible.
That plugin displays some buttons.
One of them is "text plain only", when you press on it, by manipulating dom
it extracts text out of the page and present the user a new page, which is
only with text nicely formated.
Another  button is called "text only". This one, by manipulating dom, takes
out, images, menus and co. When is the case, replaces menus with simply
links.
So I have only a page, with multiple posibilities.
This is the thing that all web developers don't understand, they are scared
that, they must maintain a lot of pages, but in fact, with object oriented
programming, xml and databases there is no need any more for multip,le
pages.
Always I said that only a wrong designed, bad coded application can not be
made accessible easily.
best regards

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "qubit" <lauraeaves@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2010 4:49 AM
Subject: Re: GNU Accessibility Statement Online


> So you view cloud as innovation -- it is interesting, I'll say that.  But
> that gets back to the agent string problem I mentioned in my last mail.
> If
> the string (or whatever it is) indicates a certain user needs a special
> accessible web page, then that web author will be forced to maintain 2
> versions, and the whole segregation thing comes in again.
> It is as costly to maintain multiple webpages as it is to design one, and
> most site authors will not do it readily, not because of lack of caring,
> but
> for economic reasons.
> I will read on in my mail before commenting further, except to say that we
> are talking about something different from the web as in the 90s, so I
> need
> to read up on cloud before getting more involved in this discussion.
> --le
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jared Wright" <wright.jaredm@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 4:45 PM
> Subject: Re: GNU Accessibility Statement Online
>
>
> I would think a part of optimizing any sort of cloud-based, widespread
> accessibility framework would involve discerning which users were using
> it so as to not send a lot of unnecessary accessibility-related data
> back and forth with users who aren't utilizing it. As more and more
> software goes into the cloud, it seems reasonable to assume that
> accessibility features of those cloud-based applications might be
> enabled or disabled on a per user level, and a user could seemingly be
> asociated to whatever accessibility features they have chosen to enable.
> As the software goes into the cloud, some of the accessibility will need
> to as well. It won't always be sufficient to have local access solutions
> for dynamically changing applications on a web platform, although most
> access solutions today are based locally.
>
> Just clarifying what I think the issue might be, personally I at this
> juncture am simply willing to put my paranoia aside in favor of the
> increased flexibility and potential of the cloud computing model. I want
> privacy to be protected, but I'd rather not see technology stagnate on
> account of it.
>
> Jared
>
>
>
>
>
> On 3/27/2010 4:29 PM, Sina Bahram wrote:
>> How are they easy to identify?
>>
>> I'm not sure why you are blanketly accepting this premis?
>>
>> How would you identify someone is using a screen reader or any other
>> assistive technology if they are connecting via a web service,
>> SSH, private protocol, or whatever.
>>
>> Take care,
>> Sina
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of qubit
>> Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 4:17 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: GNU Accessibility Statement Online
>>
>> Interesting argument.  My only question is, would I have access to my own
>> data on the server?
>> Anyway, I agree privacy applies to everyone equally and not just persons
>> with disabilities, but I think one difference is that the
>> disabled persons accessing the server are easy to identify, and therefore
>> there is an inherent privacy issue for them in particular.
>> I don't know if this is why the statement appears in the GAS.  Perhaps
>> Chris can answer.
>> --le
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Sina Bahram"<sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
>> To:<programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 2:28 PM
>> Subject: RE: GNU Accessibility Statement Online
>>
>>
>> With all due respect, I don't believe anyone deserves or needs privacy
>> more
>> so or less than someone else. Privacy should be an
>> inalienable  right given to all individuals or none. So, I respectfully
>> disagree that folks with disabilities are any different than
>> those without disabilities, or certain ethnicity groups, and so forth.
>>
>> With respect to your seemingly circular argument that cloud computing
>> somehow is more or less secure than self computing. I do not
>> accept this as a reason nor as a valid excuse. It seems that your primary
>> argument against cloud computing revolves around the
>> decentralization of information from one's own ownership. In other words,
>> you claim that because my data resides in Boston, New
>> York, or Beijing, it is somehow less secure than if it is on a computer
>> system I own.
>>
>> If you like, I can actually point you to several academic papers which
>> have
>> shown quite effective double blind security measures;
>> for example, using something like pgp for communication layer, AES for
>> data
>> protection, anonymizers for privacy protection, and
>> things such as the onion router for protection against tracing you down
>> via
>> TCP/IP access patterns.
>>
>> So I believe if appropriate measures are taken, it can actually be far
>> better with respect to privacy concerns that one's data is
>> not on computers that one owns. That way, it is not tied to a physical
>> object that can be linked to you. To this end, I posit that
>> keeping the data on your own computer can be just as, if not more so,
>> harmful to privacy, and I disagree with the free software
>> foundation's inaccurate advice to keep data in one easy to surveil, easy
>> to
>> capture, and easy to associate place. The techniques you
>> suggest and advocate for can actually harm privacy related concerns, not
>> advance them.
>>
>> All of this having been said, why are we mentioning it in an
>> accessibility
>> statement?
>>
>> Why?
>>
>> Just talk about accessibility, not about privacy.
>>
>> Take care,
>> Sina
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Chris
>> Hofstader
>> Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 12:23 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: GNU Accessibility Statement Online
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I don't disagree and wanted the statement removed but it is a GNU
>> statement
>> and must, therefore, it needs to reflect the
>> fundamentals of FSF.
>>
>> Also, people with disabilities need privacy more so than others as
>> everything from insurance premiums to potential lawsuits may
>> cause problems when and if someone gets access to their information.
>> Remember, a person with disability will cost more to insure so
>> companies may be reluctant to hire them for that reason alone.
>>
>> If asked about this statement, though, we can point to Bill Gates who, in
>> a
>> COMDEX keynote address a bunch of years ago, he made a
>> strong statement against server based programs, citing a value of putting
>> computes in the hands of the individual and also raising
>> privacy concerns.
>>
>> Also, there are people in jail in China because Yahoo turned over records
>> stored on their servers. Why not expect that the US
>> security infrastructure would be following all transactions on Skype,
>> MSN,
>> etc. giving them a lot of information into which they can
>> cast a wide net.
>>
>> There's a lot of problems with server based systems ranging from privacy
>> to
>> a centralized data bank that can be mined for all sorts
>> of reasons.
>>
>> Lastly, there is the question of who controls your computing and your
>> data.
>> Local systems put you in charge while who knows what
>> google might do with or to your information.
>>
>> Of course, I could be wrong.
>>
>> cdh
>> On Mar 27, 2010, at 11:03 AM, Sina Bahram wrote:
>>
>>
>>> The following statement really got to me:
>>>
>>> "and please don't invite users to do something on a server that they
>>> could
>>> conceivably do on their own computers."
>>>
>>> I understand that Stallmann is one of the leading activists against
>>> cloud computing, but why on earth are you allowing such an agenda to
>>> creap
>>> into a statement on accessibility?
>>>
>>> In my opinion, this one statement completely undermines the rest of the
>>> things you're trying to do.
>>>
>>> Take care,
>>> Sina
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Chris
>>> Hofstader
>>> Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 9:00 AM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: GNU Accessibility Statement Online
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> For a couple of months, Richard Stallman and I have been working on
>>> the GNU Accessibility Statement (GAS)  which takes a no nonsense
>>> approach to endorsing the rights of people with disabilities as regard
>>> software within the context of free software. I've never
>>>
>> read a more strongly worded statement from any organization regarding
>> software and people with disabilities.
>>
>>> GAS also takes a strong stance on free software values but does not
>>> endorse any specific license, although we would like people to use GPL.
>>>
>>> You can read the statement at:
>>> http://www.gnu.org/accessibility/accessibility.html
>>> and send comments to me that we can consider for future revisions of the
>>> statement.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> cdh
>>>
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