Yes, and another real world example is GPS -- we now have cars that are equippd to contact emergency when you are in a crash and give appropriate coordinates of where you are. This also makes the car hard to steal, as its location is known until the gps is removed from it. Now these perks are what you get in exchange for having big brother know where you are at all times. Perhaps one's disability status could become another easily traceable attribute. It could be nice, but it comes at a price. --le ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ishe chinyoka" <chinyoka.consultant@xxxxxxxxx> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 5:21 PM Subject: RE: GNU Accessibility Statement Online It is usually difficult, but not that impossible, to know about the client computer by a server hosted application. I was just thinking of real life scenarios on a web page: usually when trying to sign up for a new account. Those validation measures to fight against automated signups.a. If the server application is configured to keep a log of visitors who used audio challenge, this certainly compromises your disability status. Also nowadays most browser's send more info about the computer platform than we're ready to proffer. However, I agree that the statement should not seem to antagonise service providers and other private sector players. Some applications may be programmed to deliver appropriate content based on your status. So trying to shut out the world from your privacy may result in self-estrangement. Well, this is subject to a fresh debate, but in my opinion, with the advent of technology, we agreed to trade a bit of our privacy to make our lives easier. Think of how wired we are in a bid to communicate. Obviously, some app under someone's control would need to know more or less about you -- your location, device or anything to establish your identity. So while GAS may be welcome as a political statement, it may not be that palatable with players in the accessibility field especially those who eschew the .NU iDEOLOGY and Stallman's stance. So I humbly believe that if ever we as people with disabilities are to have a public statement on accessibility and privacy, it must be engineered by a group of visually impaired, and/or any other disability. We will have a problem with .NU as some will view it as more of the Free Software Foundation project. Cheers -original message- Subject: RE: GNU Accessibility Statement Online From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx> Date: 27/03/2010 10:30 pm How are they easy to identify? I'm not sure why you are blanketly accepting this premis? How would you identify someone is using a screen reader or any other assistive technology if they are connecting via a web service, SSH, private protocol, or whatever. Take care, Sina -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of qubit Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 4:17 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: GNU Accessibility Statement Online Interesting argument. My only question is, would I have access to my own data on the server? Anyway, I agree privacy applies to everyone equally and not just persons with disabilities, but I think one difference is that the disabled persons accessing the server are easy to identify, and therefore there is an inherent privacy issue for them in particular. I don't know if this is why the statement appears in the GAS. Perhaps Chris can answer. --le ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 2:28 PM Subject: RE: GNU Accessibility Statement Online With all due respect, I don't believe anyone deserves or needs privacy more so or less than someone else. Privacy should be an inalienable right given to all individuals or none. So, I respectfully disagree that folks with disabilities are any different than those without disabilities, or certain ethnicity groups, and so forth. With respect to your seemingly circular argument that cloud computing somehow is more or less secure than self computing. I do not accept this as a reason nor as a valid excuse. It seems that your primary argument against cloud computing revolves around the decentralization of information from one's own ownership. In other words, you claim that because my data resides in Boston, New York, or Beijing, it is somehow less secure than if it is on a computer system I own. If you like, I can actually point you to several academic papers which have shown quite effective double blind security measures; for example, using something like pgp for communication layer, AES for data protection, anonymizers for privacy protection, and things such as the onion router for protection against tracing you down via TCP/IP access patterns. So I believe if appropriate measures are taken, it can actually be far better with respect to privacy concerns that one's data is not on computers that one owns. That way, it is not tied to a physical object that can be linked to you. To this end, I posit that keeping the data on your own computer can be just as, if not more so, harmful to privacy, and I disagree with the free software foundation's inaccurate advice to keep data in one easy to surveil, easy to capture, and easy to associate place. The techniques you suggest and advocate for can actually harm privacy related concerns, not advance them. All of this having been said, why are we mentioning it in an accessibility statement? Why? Just talk about accessibility, not about privacy. Take care, Sina -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Chris Hofstader Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 12:23 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: GNU Accessibility Statement Online Hi, I don't disagree and wanted the statement removed but it is a GNU statement and must, therefore, it needs to reflect the fundamentals of FSF. Also, people with disabilities need privacy more so than others as everything from insurance premiums to potential lawsuits may cause problems when and if someone gets access to their information. Remember, a person with disability will cost more to insure so companies may be reluctant to hire them for that reason alone. If asked about this statement, though, we can point to Bill Gates who, in a COMDEX keynote address a bunch of years ago, he made a strong statement against server based programs, citing a value of putting computes in the hands of the individual and also raising privacy concerns. Also, there are people in jail in China because Yahoo turned over records stored on their servers. Why not expect that the US security infrastructure would be following all transactions on Skype, MSN, etc. giving them a lot of information into which they can cast a wide net. There's a lot of problems with server based systems ranging from privacy to a centralized data bank that can be mined for all sorts of reasons. Lastly, there is the question of who controls your computing and your data. Local systems put you in charge while who knows what google might do with or to your information. Of course, I could be wrong. cdh On Mar 27, 2010, at 11:03 AM, Sina Bahram wrote: > The following statement really got to me: > > "and please don't invite users to do something on a server that they could > conceivably do on their own computers." > > I understand that Stallmann is one of the leading activists against > cloud computing, but why on earth are you allowing such an agenda to creap > into a statement on accessibility? > > In my opinion, this one statement completely undermines the rest of the > things you're trying to do. > > Take care, > Sina > > -----Original Message----- > From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Chris > Hofstader > Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 9:00 AM > To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: GNU Accessibility Statement Online > > Hi, > > For a couple of months, Richard Stallman and I have been working on > the GNU Accessibility Statement (GAS) which takes a no nonsense > approach to endorsing the rights of people with disabilities as regard > software within the context of free software. I've never read a more strongly worded statement from any organization regarding software and people with disabilities. > > GAS also takes a strong stance on free software values but does not > endorse any specific license, although we would like people to use GPL. > > You can read the statement at: > http://www.gnu.org/accessibility/accessibility.html > and send comments to me that we can consider for future revisions of the > statement. > > Thanks, > cdh > > __________ > View the list's information and change your settings at > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind > > __________ > View the list's information and change your settings at > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind > __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind