RE: GNU Accessibility Statement Online

  • From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 17:13:03 -0400

Well, it's not noticeable, since UIA is browser component  level, not server 
level.

And user-agent strings can be as easily spoofed now as ever.

Take care,
Sina


-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of qubit
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 5:09 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: GNU Accessibility Statement Online

I'm thinking of the days (1997) I was working on the lynx browser, which 
communicated information in its agent string to the server,
which could bring up alternate web pages based on that information.  In order 
to fix bugs, we had to spoof Netscape and IE by
sending their agent strings so that we could add support for some of the new 
features.
But that is old news.  More current examples might include some of the support 
for UIA and MSAA -- I am actually not sure here if
the server side software is aware when a client requests this information, but 
it seems to me it might be easy to monitor, if a
person had any reason to do so.
I'm just being paranoid... You know what they say -- if the whole world is out 
to get you, the appropriate response is
paranoia...*smile* --le




----- Original Message -----
From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 3:29 PM
Subject: RE: GNU Accessibility Statement Online


How are they easy to identify?

I'm not sure why you are blanketly accepting this premis?

How would you identify someone is using a screen reader or any other 
assistive technology if they are connecting via a web service,
SSH, private protocol, or whatever.

Take care,
Sina

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of qubit
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 4:17 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: GNU Accessibility Statement Online

Interesting argument.  My only question is, would I have access to my own 
data on the server?
Anyway, I agree privacy applies to everyone equally and not just persons 
with disabilities, but I think one difference is that the
disabled persons accessing the server are easy to identify, and therefore 
there is an inherent privacy issue for them in particular.
I don't know if this is why the statement appears in the GAS.  Perhaps Chris 
can answer.
--le

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 2:28 PM
Subject: RE: GNU Accessibility Statement Online


With all due respect, I don't believe anyone deserves or needs privacy more
so or less than someone else. Privacy should be an
inalienable  right given to all individuals or none. So, I respectfully
disagree that folks with disabilities are any different than
those without disabilities, or certain ethnicity groups, and so forth.

With respect to your seemingly circular argument that cloud computing
somehow is more or less secure than self computing. I do not
accept this as a reason nor as a valid excuse. It seems that your primary
argument against cloud computing revolves around the
decentralization of information from one's own ownership. In other words,
you claim that because my data resides in Boston, New
York, or Beijing, it is somehow less secure than if it is on a computer
system I own.

If you like, I can actually point you to several academic papers which have
shown quite effective double blind security measures;
for example, using something like pgp for communication layer, AES for data
protection, anonymizers for privacy protection, and
things such as the onion router for protection against tracing you down via
TCP/IP access patterns.

So I believe if appropriate measures are taken, it can actually be far
better with respect to privacy concerns that one's data is
not on computers that one owns. That way, it is not tied to a physical
object that can be linked to you. To this end, I posit that
keeping the data on your own computer can be just as, if not more so,
harmful to privacy, and I disagree with the free software
foundation's inaccurate advice to keep data in one easy to surveil, easy to
capture, and easy to associate place. The techniques you
suggest and advocate for can actually harm privacy related concerns, not
advance them.

All of this having been said, why are we mentioning it in an accessibility
statement?

Why?

Just talk about accessibility, not about privacy.

Take care,
Sina

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Chris Hofstader
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 12:23 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: GNU Accessibility Statement Online

Hi,

I don't disagree and wanted the statement removed but it is a GNU statement
and must, therefore, it needs to reflect the
fundamentals of FSF.

Also, people with disabilities need privacy more so than others as
everything from insurance premiums to potential lawsuits may
cause problems when and if someone gets access to their information.
Remember, a person with disability will cost more to insure so
companies may be reluctant to hire them for that reason alone.

If asked about this statement, though, we can point to Bill Gates who, in a
COMDEX keynote address a bunch of years ago, he made a
strong statement against server based programs, citing a value of putting
computes in the hands of the individual and also raising
privacy concerns.

Also, there are people in jail in China because Yahoo turned over records
stored on their servers. Why not expect that the US
security infrastructure would be following all transactions on Skype, MSN,
etc. giving them a lot of information into which they can
cast a wide net.

There's a lot of problems with server based systems ranging from privacy to
a centralized data bank that can be mined for all sorts
of reasons.

Lastly, there is the question of who controls your computing and your data.
Local systems put you in charge while who knows what
google might do with or to your information.

Of course, I could be wrong.

cdh
On Mar 27, 2010, at 11:03 AM, Sina Bahram wrote:

> The following statement really got to me:
>
> "and please don't invite users to do something on a server that they could
> conceivably do on their own computers."
>
> I understand that Stallmann is one of the leading activists against
> cloud computing, but why on earth are you allowing such an agenda to creap
> into a statement on accessibility?
>
> In my opinion, this one statement completely undermines the rest of the
> things you're trying to do.
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Chris
> Hofstader
> Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 9:00 AM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: GNU Accessibility Statement Online
>
> Hi,
>
> For a couple of months, Richard Stallman and I have been working on
> the GNU Accessibility Statement (GAS)  which takes a no nonsense
> approach to endorsing the rights of people with disabilities as regard
> software within the context of free software. I've never
read a more strongly worded statement from any organization regarding
software and people with disabilities.
>
> GAS also takes a strong stance on free software values but does not
> endorse any specific license, although we would like people to use GPL.
>
> You can read the statement at:
> http://www.gnu.org/accessibility/accessibility.html
> and send comments to me that we can consider for future revisions of the
> statement.
>
> Thanks,
> cdh
>
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