Will,yes, After I sent my message I thought it was way too simplistic for a guy like you to want to create just a greakin game. It did cross my mind that the cognitive processes involved in a blind person finding their physical position in space is very similar to the visual spatial awareness one would need when playing a flight simulation game. Though this is of course all hypothetical at this point since the reference area is constant in a video game, and as we all know very well there is absolutely no relying on a known path to stay constant in the real world. It just seems like a tremendous investment of time to do it this way when there is tons, I mean tons of research involving visual spatial awareness and ability dating back to Helmholz, Tichner, Weber, and Mr. Eugenics himself Galton. what I think you might want to review is the research from that blind guy who walks around whistling in order to create a type of sonar. He claims his technique is very effective though he sites very old research and I don't think he has any empirical evidence his technique actually works. I do remember talking to his business partner who invented some sort of metronome sound generator that emits a constant sound. He said you would wear this on your head or like a necklace and this thing would generate whistles loud enough to bounce off walls and objects in effect creating the sonar the blind individual would use to navigate their way around the immediate, and he claims, distant environment. I asked the guy selling his audio tone emitter about the volume of the tone and how freaky one would look walking down the street making so much noise. He asked me: "Don't you think a blind person walking and swinging around a 4 foot long stick look odd to people?" I of course told him "no." The general public has been exposed to blind people enough to know the technique they use to navigate around their environment. After this call and interaction with this engineer I moved on as I didn't think his device would be of any true benefit for the majority of blind pedestrians.
Matthew----- Original Message ----- From: "Will Pearson" <will@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 12:00 PM Subject: Re: Flight or Space Shuttle sim
Hi Matthew,From my perspective I'm not actually interested in making a flight sim accessible. What I'm interested in is making tasks that require someone to control their velocity to avoid colliding with things in the environment accessible. A flight sim is an example of such a task.I believe that by making a flight sim accessible we can gain an understanding of how to improve the accessibility of tasks such as walking, driving, and cycling. All these tasks require that someone control their velocity, and in turn their spatial relationships, in order to avoid collisions with objects in the environment.It's not about making a particular context, such as a flight sim, accessible it's about making a generic task accessible.Will----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew2007" <matthew2007@xxxxxxxxxxx>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 5:55 PM Subject: Re: Flight or Space Shuttle simIs there really a demand for flight simulation in the blind community? Seemslike an immense amount of trouble and wasted time invested for only 2 people. I don't even think flight simulators are all that popular in the sighted community in proportion to other forms of wasting time with video games. By the way, hasn't that guy over on Rick's blind tech site already figured out a way of making these flight simulators accessible? Seem to recall a podcast on this. Matthew---- Original Message ----- From: "Will Pearson" <will@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 5:32 AM Subject: Re: Flight or Space Shuttle simHi Inthane,I've recently been thinking about how to make flight sims accessible myself. A significant part of flying and mosts tasks involving motion is manipulating spatial relationships. I think I've figured out a way to do this non visually in quite an easy way. I still need to do a couple of bits of research to find out whether my idea will work and if not where it is failing but things are looking promising at the moment.Will----- Original Message ----- From: "inthaneelf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 4:52 AM Subject: Flight or Space Shuttle sim alright now were on topic, grins! the only trouble with this is 1. if you want to be the pilot, either your doing almost nothing except watching the computer do it's thing, or you would (to make it real as can be) need to pay out the extreme amount of funds that the high caliber flight sim games require. my cousin got into that, and bought the whole set up, which ran him about 2500 if I am remembering correctly, but when he got it all assembled and plugged in, he had a honestly realistic looking and acting flight sim (without the motion/reaction cage) to play in.but you could make a decent sort of sim using keyboard and a multi functionjoystick, have been thinking about that one for a while nowwouldn't be near the real, or even demi real ones, but could be fun none theless. comments anyone? inthane. For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and Linksto Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit me at: http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com . to be able to view a simple programming project in several programming languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at: http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com----- Original Message ----- From: "John Greer" <jpgreer17@xxxxxxxxxxx>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 1:48 PM Subject: Re: Really OT Blind Pilot? Re: Team Excellence Award Winnerlol, I hear ya. My post was half joking but half serious. They could put me up on one and I don't think I would complain at all. Although, I hope they are going to Mars or something when they go. A space shuttle or jet flight sim for the blind would be a nice little project for people on this list to give consideration. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 3:30 PM Subject: RE: Really OT Blind Pilot? Re: Team Excellence Award WinnerActually it's only 10 to 20 million, depending on when you go and all that.I'm sorry, but that's so worth it to me ... something about wanting to be anastrophysicist before I could spell the word and reading hawking and KipThorn's stuff when I was 7, for the first time, and then repeatedly againevery other year ... enjoying them, and always learning more from them.And here I am in computer science ... well, the money's better, that's for sure, and I do so love the field, but *sigh*, I'd give anything to sit on amostly stable bomb and get blasted into space. Anyways, we are so beyond off topic. Take care, Sina -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John Greer Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 4:17 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Really OT Blind Pilot? Re: Team Excellence Award Winnerhmmm, how about the space shuttle. It is pretty much computer controlledfrom take off to landing. In fact the Russians have said they will takeanyone up as long as the price is right. Maybe the first spare 100 million someone gets they can go up and write to the list how it was.----- OriginalMessage ----- From: "James Panes" <jimpanes@xxxxxxxxx> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 6:59 AM Subject: Really OT Blind Pilot? Re: Team Excellence Award WinnerHmmmm, a blind pilot. I suppose that with audio and tactile AT, it might be possible. The real problem with both a blind pilot and a blind web designer is that the tactile and audio channels are much narrower band width inputs than sight. It is a fact that pilots land planes blind frequently. They rely on the readings from their instruments to land in low visibility conditions where the amount they can see out the aircraft windows is worse than useless. As things are right now, we are not going to see blind race-car drivers or pilots any time soon, but don't be so close-minded about it. Regards, Jim jimpanes@xxxxxxxxx jimpanes@xxxxxxxxxxxx "Everything is easy when you know how." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Parks" <mehgcap@xxxxxxx> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 7:26 PM Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner I agree, Rick. Some things are not going to happen for blind people--if I get on a plane and the pilot is blind, I am most certainly getting right back off. However, I know many blind people who are very successful at whatever they do, from running a vending machine business to hiking the Apalation (sorry for the spelling) Trail. I am blind and want a degree in computer science so I can work for HW or a similar company. Just because someone cannot see means nothing, especially in this age of such powerful and "smart" technology. As I said, some things are out of the reach of people with no sight but in 50 years.. Who knows? Since this is supposed to be a list about programming, though, can we please get it back on track and not have 20+ messages a day on this topic? Have a great day, Alex----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Harmon" <rickharmon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Date sent: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:04:45 -0500 Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award WinnerMatthew,It seems as if you aren't willing to give someone qualified to dotheir joba chance if they are blind? I hope this isn't so since you areblindyourself. I'd hate to see someone discriminate against you soelybecause ofyour being blind. I know I don't want to be discriminatedagainst soleybecause of my being blind. I'm not sure if your just trying toprove apoint or your really meaning what you've said in your posts. Yousaid youwouldn't have a blind lawyer and now a blind doctor either.Please explain.If someone is qualified to do their job then it's simply not fairto say youwouldn't allow them to do their job for you based on the factthey areblind.Thanks,Rick-- Visit my webpage and podcast feed at: http://www.blind-geek-zone.net and my web Blog at: http://blind-geek-zone.blogspot.com/ Join the BGZ mailing list by sending a blank email message to: blind_geek_zone-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx and put subscribe in the subject line.Contact info:Email - rickharmon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx & rharmon@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Skype - rharmon928 MSN - rharmon928@xxxxxxxxxxx ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew2007" <matthew2007@xxxxxxxxxxx To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 6:52 PM Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award WinnerIn your own opinion you're good. What objective measures orassessments canyou show for your claims? My point is that you are making thesame mistakeas those who claim blind people can make websites as good assighted people.They are basing their arguments on personal anecdotal experience.I'm sorrybut if I walked into a medical center and discovered that theperson helpingmy elderly parent learn to control her Parkinson's relatedmovement disorderis a blind person, I'm going somewhere else. I want someone whowill be ableto make an educated comprehensive assessment based on their ownassessmentof the situation and not have to go through someone else toconvey to themthe patient's physical movements.Matthew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dale Leavens" <dleavens@xxxxxxx To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 1:09 PM Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award WinnerThis entire thread is ridiculous. Loads of sighted people can'tdesign adecent Web site. Just when did it become necessary for each andevery blindperson to perform above the standard of the best sighted designeroranything else for that matter. That is a pretty high standardand just belowGod.Loads of blind programmers and Web authors can out design and outcode manythousands maybe millions of Web pages out there. Why isn't thatenough? Ifone excels for any reason at any level let us celebrate that.I am a Physiotherapist. I am darn good at rehabilitatingacquired braininjuries, I suck at respiratory conditions and don't much care.This doesnot negate my value. Admittedly I haven't won any awards either.Congratulations and thank you to the extent I, as a blind personcan benefitfrom any reflected glory.Now can we possibly return to the regularly scheduled programme? Dale Leavens, Cochrane Ontario Canada DLeavens@xxxxxxx Skype DaleLeavens Come and meet Aurora, Nakita and Nanook at our polar bearhabitat.----- Original Message ----- From: "Léonie Watson" <tink@xxxxxxxxxx To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 3:14 PM Subject: RE: Team Excellence Award WinnerMatthew,You seem to be suggesting that a VI person can't succeed, or risetoeminence in their field, in a sighted world. I sincerely hopethat you'resuggesting nothing of the kind, but perhaps you'd be good enoughto clarifyyour scepticism?Regards, Léonie.-----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf OfMatthew2007Sent: 29 November 2007 16:30 To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award WinnerIn an effort to take your anecdotal post and bring it to life,name thesepeople. I want to try to find them and research the particularsof theirsituations. After all, there is a nice big picture from 2003 ofthat moronin the white house standing on a freight carrier next to a signstating"victory." We all know what this picture leads us to believe, butthe truthis very different.Matthew ---- Original Message ----- From: "inthaneelf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 12:45 AM Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner*taking a deep breath*, *counting to ten*,*reciting mantra's to calm my spirit*teddy, one doesn't become a professional foot ball player in theNFL bybeing better than the worst foot ball player, or by being evenwith theaverage players despite his having only half of his rightfoot...one does not become a respected and well paid attorney by beingjustbetter than someone who knows nothing about the intricacies ofthe law,nor a professional class skier by being equal to sighted averageskiers,despite the fact that the gentleman is both blind and a doubleamputee...one does not earn the title of fencing master, even sighted, byonlyfencing with those who are average with a foil, or by fencingonly withthose who are blind, even if one is blind themselves..these are the types of people I am talking about, they aremasters ofthere fields, despite there disadvantages, not over those whodon't orhaven't learned how, I'm talking about people with distinctdisadvantagesthat makes there choice of work seem ridiculous to many, andforce theworld to recognize that if one wishes to, and is willing to dowhat isrequired to accomplish it, that they can be a top gun in therefield, nomatter what...quit with the f... reeking you can't, because if one of uswishes to putforth the effort, and the time, we can, period end of quote!inthane . For Blind Programming assistance, Information, UsefulPrograms, andLinks to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications,visit meat: http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com . to be able to view a simple programming project in severalprogramminglanguages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at: http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com----- Original Message ----- From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 11:06 PM Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award WinnerOh yes that could be true. There are sighted persons that don'teven knowhow to use a computer. So we can say that we as web designersare betterat web design than them. But who cares that we can be betterthan thosesighted that don't know too many things? We should be better comparing us with the medium-skilled sightedwebdesigner.... at least. But unfortunately a medium-skilled web designer might know tocreateimages, maybe a little Flash, some Javascript, and nobody willcare thathe doesn't put a document type declaration at the top of his webpages,or that his pages won't be W3C compliant.If you will check the Google's web page with the W3C's htmlvalidator, itwill tell you:Failed validation, 30 ErrorsSo... of course W3C's validator is not important at all,because Google'spage is very accessible, very simple, and with a design....better saidalmost without any design.Octavian----- Original Message ----- From: "inthaneelf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 8:40 AM Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winnerteddy that is far from what I meant, my computer locked up on my previous reply, so I'll take my time since I seem to have ahabit ofoverloading my machine, and I'll get back on this later, if Idon'tdecide it doesn't warrant a reply when I cool down..I can tell you about a number of "handicapped" people that havemasteredareas that are thought of as "sighted and fit" only areas aswell orbetter than most of there "whole and healthy" fellow humanslaters, inthane . For Blind Programming assistance, Information, UsefulPrograms, andLinks to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications,visitme at: http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com . to be able to view a simple programming project in severalprogramminglanguages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at: http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com----- Original Message ----- From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 1:32 PM Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award WinnerOh yes, that's true, and sometimes the screen reader doesn'teven showus the correct colors, and even if it show us that 2 words comeoneafter another in the same line, it doesn't tell us that maybethe firstis a static word in a iframe element and the other one is a text written dynamicly by a javascript code, and it might scrollslowly upor down becoming very confusing for us at a page refresh.I think we shouldn't fight for beeing what we can't be. Oh yes,thereare handicapped people without a leg that participate indifferentsports, showing that they can do more, but we all know that theywillnever be equal to a healthy person, no matter how good or bad heis.And let's not forget that the productivity of the work is also important. What we can do would have a very low value if wewould beable to do it in a much longer period than a sighted designer.Octavian----- Original Message ----- From: "inthaneelf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 10:35 PM Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winnerwhich except for rare occasions is not practical Marlon, sincewe livein a sighted world, and the majority of folks that we are goingtoneed to deal with are sighted, I'm sorry that you have noexperiencein the visual view of things, this is one area where I have an advantage.but... you can't avoid the visual world, it's out there, it'sthemajority, and so you might as well learn the tricks for dealingwithit, use the standards and templates when and where you can, anddoyour best to adapt.the best description for trying to convey sight to a person thathasnever had it, was spoken by a blind dude that never had sight inhislife,its the description I use now a days, since I have found myselfoftentrying to describe visual aspects to those who have never hadsite.one thing you should do if you haven't, go to a web site, keep yourself at the top of the page, and turn on the invisiblecursor andgo up and down the page to see what it actually looks like, suchas,the that that instead of the vertical column that jaws presentsuswith, that its actually more like a message written in Braille, including the navigation links which run from left to rightacross thepage, not in the vertical column that is presented to us.take care, and good luck, inthane . For Blind Programming assistance, Information, UsefulPrograms, andLinks to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications,visitme at: http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com . to be able to view a simple programming project in several programming languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at: http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com----- Original Message ----- From: "Marlon Brandão de Sousa" <splyt.lists@xxxxxxxxx To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 9:01 AM Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award WinnerHello folks, Well I have never seen ... so I have no a ... let's call it..visual standards so, although I can technically do it very well ... Icannot plan, like imagine, build ... a nice visual interface, becauseIdon't know what it is expected. A quick example is I beleaved gfirmlythatthe windows explorer put the folder treeview in the top and the listview below it, and I couldn't beleave when a guy tould me naturally that the treeview was in the left and the listview wasinthe right!!!! Similarly, because of the top down aproach most part of screen readers use to present web content, I have dificulties to imagine hwat exactly sighted people expect to see in a webpage or something likethis.I can plan the components of the interface, but deciding * and putting * them in the more "apropriate" place or planning what wouldhappenif one changes their screen resolution or diicovering by teory how browsers would react to it without testing is something very different. If I had been sighted (and lost my sight after the modern lookandfeel's I perhaps would be totally able to build interfaces basedonthe standards of what should be common to folks, but the onlything Ican do for now is build an interface based on someone's specifications. And even then I will spend eforts trying tobuildsomething which belongs to a group of situations that I can'timaginevery well ... and, again, I wouldn't be able to test my ownwork,which seen something pretty nasty to any [programmer I know of..now the point is: For sure many blind folks can do gui's, but theywillfeel more confortable and be more productive if they're doing something which has not a visual result as its goal ... whichshouldbe perfectly logical. Thanks Marlon2007/11/28, jaffar <jaffar@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>:Hi Jim. Excellent news. Congrats Jeff. Just shows what, ifyouall will forgive the pun, application will do for one, not to mentionhardwork and determination, and the willingness to try. Cheers! ----- Original Message ----- From: <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 9:42 PM Subject: Team Excellence Award WinnerHi All, Where I consult, one of our fellow listers was on a team who wonavery prestigious award. The team developed a highly visible web application. Jeff Fidler designed and coded the GUI interface for the site using HTML, CSS and Javascript. He used Section 508 and W3C techniques andthesighted people in the company rave about it.I write this to urge anyone who thinks that someone who is blind cannot design Web interfaces well to keep on trying. You can do it.JimJames D Homme, , Usability Engineering, Highmark Inc., james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx, 412-544-1810"Never doubt that a thoughtful group of committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead__________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind-- When you say "I wrote a program that crashed Windows," peoplejuststare at you blankly and say "Hey, I got those with the system,forfree." 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