RE: Dang it!! i can't believe it!
- From: dusty bray <dusty_bray@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 20:41:39 -0400
Chris,
When i read your email, i nearly hit the floor. But let me itemize some points
so that i can clearly understand what you are saying:
i made an accessible application that i intend to distribute free of charge to
the blind community.
i invented a simple method for using sounds to identify object classes and did
not realize that JAWS already uses a similar method.
i am not using any of Freedom Scientific’s code.
i am not using any of Freedom Scientific’s sounds.
Yet, Freedom Scientific can actually sue me for associating object classes with
sounds to aid in accessibility?
If i am still in danger of a lawsuit, could you please advise me on the best
course of action? (Maybe as penance? smile) Is there anything i can do?
Well, thank you very much for letting me know about this issue. i made that
comment jokingly, but i didn’t realize FS could actually sue me for providing a
solution that is so obvious in my mind (and so seemingly miniscule). It’s
almost as though Freedom Scientific has patents on freedom itself.
dusty.......
> From: chris.hofstader@xxxxxxxxxxx
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Dang it!!
> Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 18:28:26 -0400
>
> And they are prohibited by international patent law from getting it for
> another 16 years or so. Serotek and GW both want to do it but they don't
> want to deal with the FS lawyers. Sadly, I wrote most of the patent
> application, I'm listed as an inventor and I would call for a "do over" if
> such things existed in the adult world. And people wonder why I still have
> guilt ridden nightmares about some of the things I did as part of my job at
> FS.
>
> cdh
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kevin Jones
> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 1:40 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Dang it!!
>
> it only works with jaws though so there are all the other screen reader
> users out there who use something else.
>
>
> dusty bray wrote:
> > i'm so steamed!! It appears JAWS thought of this sound scheme idea
> > first. i really had to hunt for it, but i found it deep in some menus.
> > And i don't think it just associates with a list of words; i think it
> > actually associates with control types like mine does. Dang it!
> >
> > Oh well, but i will make it popular! smile. And hopefully i won't be
> > sued by JAWS; it's a great idea and i think it could really advance the
> > blind community if it were universally accepted someday. i think JAWS'
> > version is a little different simply because they don't define a set of
> > default sounds. You have to set each one yourself, don't you? So if
> > nothing else, i would like to promote a standard set of sounds just as
> > sighted users have a universally recognized set of icons.
> >
> > Well, thanks so much, everyone, for letting me know about this feature
> > in JAWS. i'm going to go sulk now. smile
> >
> > dusty.......
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > From: jimpanes@xxxxxxxxx
> > To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: Re: Web Page Editor for the Blind
> > Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 08:04:20 -0400
> >
> > Hi Dusty,
> >
> > JAWS has a speach and sounds manager. It allows any word that JAWS
> > is pronouncing to either be associated with a sound or use a sound
> > to substitute for a word.
> >
> > While this mechanism can be used to approximate the behavior of your
> > web page editor, it does not truly recognize the types of objects on
> > the screen.
> >
> > I have made this adjustment in my dictionary manager so that I hear
> > a harp string instead of the word "link" a million times when I read
> > a web page. This one change alone has sped up my web access and made
> > life much less annoying for me.
> >
> > Using sounds in a way that does not interfere with the user hearing
> > the text may very well speed up access. Any improvement in this area
> > is a welcome change.
> >
> > Thanks for trying this idea. I'll give it a try.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Jim
> > jimpanes@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:jimpanes@xxxxxxxxx>
> > jimpanes@xxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:jimpanes@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > "Everything is easy when you know how."
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > *From:* John Greer <mailto:jpgreer17@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > *To:* programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > *Sent:* Thursday, October 11, 2007 7:36 AM
> > *Subject:* Re: Web Page Editor for the Blind
> >
> > Well to tell you the truth, I have known some blind persons to
> > assign sounds to every event that can be assigned in Windows. So
> > you also have to plan for those people too. I would also have to
> > agree, there should also be an option to not use the sounds. The
> > screen reader however would still need to identify the elements that
> > the sounds are identifying though. For example, instead of having a
> > pop sound to identify a Submit button that is red, the screen reader
> > should say red Submit button.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > *From:* dusty bray <mailto:dusty_bray@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > *To:* programmingblind@freelistsorg
> > <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > *Sent:* Thursday, October 11, 2007 12:09 AM
> > *Subject:* RE: Web Page Editor for the Blind
> >
> > i could always use a good "boing" sound. smile. But i would
> > certainly accompny it with some kind of text of course. You
> > know, it's really hard to find good, free sound effects. i'll
> > have to check out clipmate.
> >
> > Well, i see what you're saying about sounds clashing, and that
> > is another good reason to allow the user to turn sounds off.
> > However, how often do applications make sounds when objects
> > receive focus? They usually accompany an action, like a button
> > click. So, i wouldn't think these sounds would get in the way
> > very often.
> >
> > dusty.......
> >
> > > From: leaves1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: Re: Web Page Editor for the Blind
> > > Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 23:34:08 -0400
> > >
> > > Well, all I can say is I have a great "boing" sound for an
> > error condition.
> > > but then again, text describing the error would really be
> > more relevant than
> > > and boing...
> > >
> > > If you want to hear some great sound effects, check out the
> > old clipmate
> > > clibpoard manager for windows. I loved using the various
> > features so I
> > > could hear how it sounded, and indeed the sounds were
> > helpful. But this
> > > brings up the problem of your program having sounds that
> > might clash with
> > > another program. Just a thought.
> > > Good luck and happy hacking.
> > > --le
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Matthew2007" <matthew2007@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 10:50 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Web Page Editor for the Blind
> > >
> > >
> > > This method of generating audio icons is interesting. It does
> > appear to hold
> > > the potential of speeding up computing, but it might have a
> > steep learning
> > > curve as the new user will have to take lots of time out to
> > learn the sounds
> > > then create the mental associations with the sound and the
> > intended action.
> > > In other words, there is a possibility of new users giving up
> > on it as they
> > > might deem it much more difficult to use than the more common
> > methods of
> > > computing. That is, it will be easier for them to know what
> > to do with an
> > > audio message telling them "Ok," than an audio message
> > telling them "beep
> > > beep." Now that I think of it, if you attach piano sounds to
> > the audio-icons
> > > you might end up composing quite a musical piece and not even
> > know it.
> > >
> > > Then again there is the noise factor as all these strange
> > sounds might annoy
> > > or at the very least distract others in the vicinity.
> > >
> > > I do believe that your audio-icons do have great potential in
> > that they can
> > > be of great use to power users that only need that tiny hint
> > of reassurance
> > > they're moving along and clicking what they intend to click.
> > >
> > > "Oh wait," I just thought of something, doesn't this type of
> > computing
> > > already exist to some extent within the Jaws speech and
> > sounds manager?
> > >
> > > Regardless, I would continue exploring this interaction
> > channel as it might
> > > ultimately yield lots of efficiency for the proficient blind
> > computer user.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Matthew
> > > ---- Original Message -----
> > > From: "dusty bray" <dusty_bray@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 7:19 PM
> > > Subject: RE: Web Page Editor for the Blind
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Yeah, you're definitely right, inthane-- it should have an
> > option to turn
> > > > off the sounds, but this version is severely lacking in
> > many, many ways
> > > > right now. i just wanted to give everyone an idea of how
> > this system
> > > > works.
> > > >
> > > > And honestly, i think if i gave that option initially, then
> > everyone would
> > > > just turn it off and not actually try to make it work smile. i
> > > > anticipate this being somewhat of a learning curve because
> > the user has to
> > > > build mental connections between a sound and its meaning.
> > In the same
> > > > way, users had difficulty transitioning from command line
> > to Windows based
> > > > operating systems because the graphical symbols were
> > totally unfamiliar at
> > > > first. But today, there exists a universally recognized set
> > of graphics
> > > > for identifying objects, and these graphics allow sighted
> > users to work
> > > > more efficiently now. i see an opportunity to use
> > background noises for
> > > > the same purpose. You could fit a lot of useful information
> > in that empty
> > > > space.
> > > >
> > > > Of course, Windows has already tried to incorporate sounds
> > into the
> > > > interface, but these sounds were used very inappropriately.
> > Instead of
> > > > associating objects with sounds, they associated actions
> > with sounds,
> > > > which gives information after the fact. So even as i use
> > this new system,
> > > > i'm having to consciously reprogram myself not to think of
> > these sounds as
> > > > actions but as markers for object types.
> > > >
> > > > But i do want to know if people find this particular set of
> > sounds
> > > > overbearing. Should i adjust the volumes? Can you hear the
> > voice clearly
> > > > over the sounds?
> > > >
> > > > Also, did you ever recieve my original message?? That's
> > really strange.
> > > > It's still programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, right?
> > > >
> > > > Ok, well definitely give me your oppinion if you get a
> > chance to use the
> > > > software. Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > dusty.......
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> From: inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >> Subject: Re: Web Page Editor for the Blind
> > > >> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:23:42 -0700
> > > >>
> > > >> interesting, I got your reply to Dusty's message, but
> > haven't received
> > > >> the
> > > >> original even yet, hmmmmm!
> > > >>
> > > >> I haven't tried your ap yet Dusty, but it would be nice if
> > you could
> > > >> reverse
> > > >> things, in other words, turn off the added sounds, and
> > return it to full
> > > >> speaking of the items, since I don't do well with sounds,
> > maybe a check
> > > >> box
> > > >> in an options menu/dialog for changing it, giving the user
> > the choice?
> > > >>
> > > >> regards,
> > > >> inthane
> > > >> ? For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful
> > Programs, and
> > > >> Links
> > > >> to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications,
> > visit me at:
> > > >> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
> > > >> ? to be able to view a simple programming project in
> > several programming
> > > >> languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
> > > >> http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
> > > >>
> > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> From: "John covici" <covici@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > >> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > >> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 2:49 PM
> > > >> Subject: Web Page Editor for the Blind
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> >I wonder if it would work with hardware speech at all
> > since the speech
> > > >> > and the sound may get out of sync? Ever test this?
> > > >> >
> > > >> > on Wednesday 10/10/2007 dusty
> > bray(dusty_bray@xxxxxxxxxxx) wrote
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Hi everybody,
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > i$,1rym looking for people to evaluate the Web page
> > editor that
> > > >> > > i$,1rym starting and give some feedback.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > i$,1rym incorporating some cool features into this
> > program that i
> > > >> > > hope
> > > >> > > will allow blind users to easily create content-rich
> > Web pages.
> > > >> > > i$,1rym especially excited about the mathematical
> > expression editor.
> > > >> > > And i think you$,1ryll enjoy some of the other
> > surprises i$,1ryve
> > > >> > > added.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > This application also introduces a new concept for quickly
> > > >> > > differentiating between controls in the editor$,1rys
> > interface. In
> > > >> > > applications designed for sighted users, components
> > are visually
> > > >> > > distinct: buttons appear raised, text boxes appear
> > inset, and each
> > > >> > > item
> > > >> > > differs in some way that suggests its intended
> > function. Page
> > > >> > > Designer
> > > >> > > achieves this effect auditorily. The application plays
> > programmatic
> > > >> > > sounds in parallel with voice output to quickly
> > identify both an
> > > >> > > object$,1rys type and its value. So rather than
> > speaking "OK
> > > >> > > button",
> > > >> > > the editor speaks "OK" and plays a popping sound at
> > the same moment,
> > > >> > > effectively saving half the number of syllables.
> > Textboxes are
> > > >> > > associated with a tapping sound; picture boxes are
> > accompanied by the
> > > >> > > sound of a camera shutter; the volume of a radio
> > button$,1rys sound
> > > >> > > varies depending its selection state.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Visit this link to download the application:
> > > >> > >
> >
> > http://here-i-am.sourceforge.net/downloads/Here-I-Am_Page-Designer1.zip
> > > >> > > The executable is named here-i-am_page-designer.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Please have patience with it. This is only a beta
> > version of the
> > > >> > > program. Also, the interface is very different and
> > takes some
> > > >> > > getting
> > > >> > > used to.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > i hate making concessions for JAWS, but i$,1ryve
> > changed the
> > > >> > > navigation keys to ensure my program doesn$,1ryt
> > conflict. As
> > > >> > > before,
> > > >> > > the navigation model arranges content into a hierarchy
> > with parent
> > > >> > > nodes
> > > >> > > corresponding to higher levels of abstraction and
> > child nodes
> > > >> > > corresponding to lower levels of abstraction. To see
> > more details of
> > > >> > > an
> > > >> > > object, press spacebar. If at any point you becomes
> > lost, pressing
> > > >> > > Escape will move the selection up one level of
> > abstraction, revealing
> > > >> > > a
> > > >> > > "bigger picture".
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Unfortunately, this program is still far from the
> > screen reader i
> > > >> > > envision. This is just a self-voicing application, and
> > the objects
> > > >> > > do
> > > >> > > not correspond to actual objects on the screen, so it
> > probably lacks
> > > >> > > much of the functionality to which you may be
> > accustomed. But i feel
> > > >> > > like i$,1rym slowly getting closer.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Hope you enjoy it,
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > dusty.......
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > > >> > > Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the
> > Messenger
> > > >> > > Caf,Ai.
> > > >> > > Stop by today.
> > > >> > >
> >
> > http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline<html>
> > > >> > > <head>
> > > >> > > <style>
> > > >> > > .hmmessage P
> > > >> > > {
> > > >> > > margin:0px;
> > > >> > > padding:0px
> > > >> > > }
> > > >> > > body.hmmessage
> > > >> > > {
> > > >> > > FONT-SIZE: 10pt;
> > > >> > > FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma
> > > >> > > }
> > > >> > > </style>
> > > >> > > </head>
> > > >> > > <body class='hmmessage'>
> > > >> > > Hi everybody,<br><br>i$,1rym looking for people to
> > evaluate the Web
> > > >> > > page editor that i$,1rym starting and give some
> > > >> > > feedback.<br><br>i$,1rym incorporating some cool
> > features into this
> > > >> > > program that i hope will allow blind users to easily
> > create
> > > >> > > content-rich
> > > >> > > Web pages. i$,1rym especially excited about the
> > mathematical
> > > >> > > expression editor. And i think you$,1ryll enjoy
> > some of the
> > > >> > > other surprises i$,1ryve added.<br><br>This
> > application also
> > > >> > > introduces a new concept for quickly differentiating
> > between controls
> > > >> > > in
> > > >> > > the editor$,1rys interface. In applications designed
> > for sighted
> > > >> > > users, components are visually distinct: buttons
> > appear raised, text
> > > >> > > boxes appear inset, and each item differs in some way
> > that suggests
> > > >> > > its
> > > >> > > intended function. Page Designer achieves this effect
> > auditorily. The
> > > >> > > application plays programmatic sounds in parallel with
> > voice output
> > > >> > > to
> > > >> > > quickly identify both an object$,1rys type and its
> > value. So rather
> > > >> > > than speaking "OK button", the editor speaks "OK" and
> > plays a popping
> > > >> > > sound at the same moment, effectively saving half the
> > number of
> > > >> > > syllables. Textboxes are associated with a tapping
> > sound; picture
> > > >> > > boxes
> > > >> > > are accompanied by the sound of a camera shutter; the
> > volume of a
> > > >> > > radio
> > > >> > > button$,1rys sound varies depending its selection
> > > >> > > state.<br><br>Visit
> > > >> > > this link to download the application:
> > > >> > >
> >
> > http://here-i-am.sourceforge.net/downloads/Here-I-Am_Page-Designer1.zip<br>The
> > > >> > > executable is named
> > here-i-am_page-designer.<br><br>Please have
> > > >> > > patience
> > > >> > > with it. This is only a beta version of the
> > program.
> > > >> > > Also,
> > > >> > > the interface is very different and takes some getting
> > used
> > > >> > > to.<br><br>i
> > > >> > > hate making concessions for JAWS, but i$,1ryve
> > changed the
> > > >> > > navigation
> > > >> > > keys to ensure my program doesn$,1ryt conflict.
> > As before, the
> > > >> > > navigation model arranges content into a hierarchy
> > with parent nodes
> > > >> > > corresponding to higher levels of abstraction and
> > child nodes
> > > >> > > corresponding to lower levels of abstraction. To see
> > more details of
> > > >> > > an
> > > >> > > object, press spacebar. If at any point you becomes
> > lost, pressing
> > > >> > > Escape will move the selection up one level of
> > abstraction, revealing
> > > >> > > a
> > > >> > > "bigger picture".<br><br>Unfortunately, this program
> > is still far
> > > >> > > from
> > > >> > > the screen reader i envision. This is just a
> > self-voicing
> > > >> > > application, and the objects do not correspond to
> > actual objects on
> > > >> > > the
> > > >> > > screen, so it probably lacks much of the functionality
> > to which you
> > > >> > > may
> > > >> > > be accustomed. But i feel like i$,1rym slowly
> > getting
> > > >> > > closer.<br><br>Hope you enjoy
> > it,<br><br>dusty.......<br><br><br
> > > >> > > /><hr
> > > >> > > />Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the
> > Messenger
> > > >> > > Caf,Ai. <a
> > > >> > >
> >
> > href='http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline'
> > > >> > > target='_new'>Stop by today!</a></body>
> > > >> > > </html>
> > > >> > --
> > > >> > Your life is like a penny. You're going to lose it. The
> > question is:
> > > >> > How do
> > > >> > you spend it?
> > > >> >
> > > >> > John Covici
> > > >> > covici@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx'カ翰学ョf渇旛jxハ恭・xjリカ淌 ュ
> > 迥ヒ「ク・嘯カ・nX
> > > >> __________
> > > >> View the list's information and change your settings at
> > > >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You!
> > > > http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us
> > >
> > > __________
> > > View the list's information and change your settings at
> > > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> > >
> > > __________
> > > View the list's information and change your settings at
> > > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> > >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook – together at
> > last. Get it now!
> >
> > <http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=CL100626971033>
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Café. Stop
> > by today!
> > <http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline>
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at
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>
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