Re: Dang it!!

what about the fact that he developed this on his own before he found out about 
the jaws version, if it is different enough, he may be able to carry it through 
if he stops looking at the jaws version and continue developing along his own, 
un influenced lines? 


• For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and Links to 
Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit me at:
http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
• to be able to view a simple programming project in several programming 
languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Chris Hofstader 
  To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 3:25 PM
  Subject: RE: Dang it!!


  The JAWS Speech and Sounds Manager, a cool feature, is covered by both US and 
EU patent protection.  You can search for the US patent on the USPTO web site.  
It names me and some others as inventors.  If you followed FS v. Serotek, in 
the trademark dispute, you should tread lightly in areas for which they have 
documented legal protection as, in both US and EU, you would be subject to 
triple damages if found guilty of knowingly (which you have pronounced in your 
last email) violated FS' patented intellectual property.






------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of dusty bray
  Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 1:25 PM
  To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  Subject: Dang it!!


  i'm so steamed!!  It appears JAWS thought of this sound scheme idea first.  i 
really had to hunt for it, but i found it deep in some menus.  And i don't 
think it just associates with a list of words; i think it actually associates 
with control types like mine does.  Dang it!

  Oh well, but i will make it popular!  smile.  And hopefully i won't be sued 
by JAWS; it's a great idea and i think it could really advance the blind 
community if it were universally accepted someday.  i think JAWS' version is a 
little different simply because they don't define a set of default sounds.  You 
have to set each one yourself, don't you?  So if nothing else, i would like to 
promote a standard set of sounds just as sighted users have a universally 
recognized set of icons.

  Well, thanks so much, everyone, for letting me know about this feature in 
JAWS.  i'm going to go sulk now.  smile

  dusty.......




----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    From: jimpanes@xxxxxxxxx
    To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    Subject: Re: Web Page Editor for the Blind
    Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 08:04:20 -0400


    Hi Dusty,

    JAWS has a speach and sounds manager. It allows any word that JAWS is 
pronouncing to either be associated with a sound or use a sound to substitute 
for a word.

    While this mechanism can be used to approximate the behavior of your web 
page editor, it does not truly recognize the types of objects on the screen.

    I have made this adjustment in my dictionary manager so that I hear a harp 
string instead of the word "link" a million times when I read a web page. This 
one change alone has sped up my web access and made life much less annoying for 
me.

    Using sounds in a way that does not interfere with the user hearing the 
text may very well speed up access. Any improvement in this area is a welcome 
change.

    Thanks for trying this idea. I'll give it a try.

    Regards,
    Jim
    jimpanes@xxxxxxxxx
    jimpanes@xxxxxxxxxxxx
    "Everything is easy when you know how."

    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: John Greer 
    To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
    Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 7:36 AM
    Subject: Re: Web Page Editor for the Blind


    Well to tell you the truth, I have known some blind persons to assign 
sounds to every event that can be assigned in Windows.  So you also have to 
plan for those people too.  I would also have to agree, there should also be an 
option to not use the sounds.  The screen reader however would still need to 
identify the elements that the sounds are identifying though.  For example, 
instead of having a pop sound to identify a Submit button that is red, the 
screen reader should say red Submit button.
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: dusty bray 
      To: programmingblind@freelistsorg 
      Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 12:09 AM
      Subject: RE: Web Page Editor for the Blind


      i could always use a good "boing" sound.  smile.  But i would certainly 
accompny it with some kind of text of course.  You know, it's really hard to 
find good, free sound effects.  i'll have to check out clipmate.

      Well, i see what you're saying about sounds clashing, and that is another 
good reason to allow the user to turn sounds off.  However, how often do 
applications make sounds when objects receive focus?  They usually accompany an 
action, like a button click.  So, i wouldn't think these sounds would get in 
the way very often.

      dusty.......

      > From: leaves1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
      > To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
      > Subject: Re: Web Page Editor for the Blind
      > Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 23:34:08 -0400
      > 
      > Well, all I can say is I have a great "boing" sound for an error 
condition.
      > but then again, text describing the error would really be more relevant 
than
      > and boing...
      > 
      > If you want to hear some great sound effects, check out the old clipmate
      > clibpoard manager for windows. I loved using the various features so I
      > could hear how it sounded, and indeed the sounds were helpful. But this
      > brings up the problem of your program having sounds that might clash 
with
      > another program. Just a thought.
      > Good luck and happy hacking.
      > --le
      > 
      > ----- Original Message ----- 
      > From: "Matthew2007" <matthew2007@xxxxxxxxxxx>
      > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
      > Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 10:50 PM
      > Subject: Re: Web Page Editor for the Blind
      > 
      > 
      > This method of generating audio icons is interesting. It does appear to 
hold
      > the potential of speeding up computing, but it might have a steep 
learning
      > curve as the new user will have to take lots of time out to learn the 
sounds
      > then create the mental associations with the sound and the intended 
action.
      > In other words, there is a possibility of new users giving up on it as 
they
      > might deem it much more difficult to use than the more common methods of
      > computing. That is, it will be easier for them to know what to do with 
an
      > audio message telling them "Ok," than an audio message telling them 
"beep
      > beep." Now that I think of it, if you attach piano sounds to the 
audio-icons
      > you might end up composing quite a musical piece and not even know it.
      > 
      > Then again there is the noise factor as all these strange sounds might 
annoy
      > or at the very least distract others in the vicinity.
      > 
      > I do believe that your audio-icons do have great potential in that they 
can
      > be of great use to power users that only need that tiny hint of 
reassurance
      > they're moving along and clicking what they intend to click.
      > 
      > "Oh wait," I just thought of something, doesn't this type of computing
      > already exist to some extent within the Jaws speech and sounds manager?
      > 
      > Regardless, I would continue exploring this interaction channel as it 
might
      > ultimately yield lots of efficiency for the proficient blind computer 
user.
      > 
      > Thanks,
      > Matthew
      > ---- Original Message ----- 
      > From: "dusty bray" <dusty_bray@xxxxxxxxxxx>
      > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
      > Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 7:19 PM
      > Subject: RE: Web Page Editor for the Blind
      > 
      > 
      > >
      > > Yeah, you're definitely right, inthane-- it should have an option to 
turn
      > > off the sounds, but this version is severely lacking in many, many 
ways
      > > right now. i just wanted to give everyone an idea of how this system
      > > works.
      > >
      > > And honestly, i think if i gave that option initially, then everyone 
would
      > > just turn it off and not actually try to make it work smile. i
      > > anticipate this being somewhat of a learning curve because the user 
has to
      > > build mental connections between a sound and its meaning. In the same
      > > way, users had difficulty transitioning from command line to Windows 
based
      > > operating systems because the graphical symbols were totally 
unfamiliar at
      > > first. But today, there exists a universally recognized set of 
graphics
      > > for identifying objects, and these graphics allow sighted users to 
work
      > > more efficiently now. i see an opportunity to use background noises 
for
      > > the same purpose. You could fit a lot of useful information in that 
empty
      > > space.
      > >
      > > Of course, Windows has already tried to incorporate sounds into the
      > > interface, but these sounds were used very inappropriately. Instead of
      > > associating objects with sounds, they associated actions with sounds,
      > > which gives information after the fact. So even as i use this new 
system,
      > > i'm having to consciously reprogram myself not to think of these 
sounds as
      > > actions but as markers for object types.
      > >
      > > But i do want to know if people find this particular set of sounds
      > > overbearing. Should i adjust the volumes? Can you hear the voice 
clearly
      > > over the sounds?
      > >
      > > Also, did you ever recieve my original message?? That's really 
strange.
      > > It's still programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, right?
      > >
      > > Ok, well definitely give me your oppinion if you get a chance to use 
the
      > > software. Thanks,
      > >
      > > dusty.......
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >> From: inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
      > >> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
      > >> Subject: Re: Web Page Editor for the Blind
      > >> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:23:42 -0700
      > >>
      > >> interesting, I got your reply to Dusty's message, but haven't 
received
      > >> the
      > >> original even yet, hmmmmm!
      > >>
      > >> I haven't tried your ap yet Dusty, but it would be nice if you could
      > >> reverse
      > >> things, in other words, turn off the added sounds, and return it to 
full
      > >> speaking of the items, since I don't do well with sounds, maybe a 
check
      > >> box
      > >> in an options menu/dialog for changing it, giving the user the 
choice?
      > >>
      > >> regards,
      > >> inthane
      > >> ? For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and
      > >> Links
      > >> to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit me 
at:
      > >> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
      > >> ? to be able to view a simple programming project in several 
programming
      > >> languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
      > >> http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
      > >>
      > >> ----- Original Message ----- 
      > >> From: "John covici" <covici@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
      > >> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
      > >> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 2:49 PM
      > >> Subject: Web Page Editor for the Blind
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> >I wonder if it would work with hardware speech at all since the 
speech
      > >> > and the sound may get out of sync? Ever test this?
      > >> >
      > >> > on Wednesday 10/10/2007 dusty bray(dusty_bray@xxxxxxxxxxx) wrote
      > >> > >
      > >> > > Hi everybody,
      > >> > >
      > >> > > i$,1rym looking for people to evaluate the Web page editor that
      > >> > > i$,1rym starting and give some feedback.
      > >> > >
      > >> > > i$,1rym incorporating some cool features into this program that 
i
      > >> > > hope
      > >> > > will allow blind users to easily create content-rich Web pages.
      > >> > > i$,1rym especially excited about the mathematical expression 
editor.
      > >> > > And i think you$,1ryll enjoy some of the other surprises 
i$,1ryve
      > >> > > added.
      > >> > >
      > >> > > This application also introduces a new concept for quickly
      > >> > > differentiating between controls in the editor$,1rys interface. 
In
      > >> > > applications designed for sighted users, components are visually
      > >> > > distinct: buttons appear raised, text boxes appear inset, and 
each
      > >> > > item
      > >> > > differs in some way that suggests its intended function. Page
      > >> > > Designer
      > >> > > achieves this effect auditorily. The application plays 
programmatic
      > >> > > sounds in parallel with voice output to quickly identify both an
      > >> > > object$,1rys type and its value. So rather than speaking "OK
      > >> > > button",
      > >> > > the editor speaks "OK" and plays a popping sound at the same 
moment,
      > >> > > effectively saving half the number of syllables. Textboxes are
      > >> > > associated with a tapping sound; picture boxes are accompanied 
by the
      > >> > > sound of a camera shutter; the volume of a radio button$,1rys 
sound
      > >> > > varies depending its selection state.
      > >> > >
      > >> > > Visit this link to download the application:
      > >> > > 
http://here-i-am.sourceforge.net/downloads/Here-I-Am_Page-Designer1.zip
      > >> > > The executable is named here-i-am_page-designer.
      > >> > >
      > >> > > Please have patience with it. This is only a beta version of the
      > >> > > program. Also, the interface is very different and takes some
      > >> > > getting
      > >> > > used to.
      > >> > >
      > >> > > i hate making concessions for JAWS, but i$,1ryve changed the
      > >> > > navigation keys to ensure my program doesn$,1ryt conflict. As
      > >> > > before,
      > >> > > the navigation model arranges content into a hierarchy with 
parent
      > >> > > nodes
      > >> > > corresponding to higher levels of abstraction and child nodes
      > >> > > corresponding to lower levels of abstraction. To see more 
details of
      > >> > > an
      > >> > > object, press spacebar. If at any point you becomes lost, 
pressing
      > >> > > Escape will move the selection up one level of abstraction, 
revealing
      > >> > > a
      > >> > > "bigger picture".
      > >> > >
      > >> > > Unfortunately, this program is still far from the screen reader i
      > >> > > envision. This is just a self-voicing application, and the 
objects
      > >> > > do
      > >> > > not correspond to actual objects on the screen, so it probably 
lacks
      > >> > > much of the functionality to which you may be accustomed. But i 
feel
      > >> > > like i$,1rym slowly getting closer.
      > >> > >
      > >> > > Hope you enjoy it,
      > >> > >
      > >> > > dusty.......
      > >> > >
      > >> > >
      > >> > > _________________________________________________________________
      > >> > > Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger
      > >> > > Caf,Ai.
      > >> > > Stop by today.
      > >> > > 
http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline<html>
      > >> > > <head>
      > >> > > <style>
      > >> > > .hmmessage P
      > >> > > {
      > >> > > margin:0px;
      > >> > > padding:0px
      > >> > > }
      > >> > > body.hmmessage
      > >> > > {
      > >> > > FONT-SIZE: 10pt;
      > >> > > FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma
      > >> > > }
      > >> > > </style>
      > >> > > </head>
      > >> > > <body class='hmmessage'>
      > >> > > Hi everybody,<br><br>i$,1rym looking for people to evaluate the 
Web
      > >> > > page editor that i$,1rym starting and give some
      > >> > > feedback.<br><br>i$,1rym incorporating some cool features into 
this
      > >> > > program that i hope will allow blind users to easily create
      > >> > > content-rich
      > >> > > Web pages.&nbsp; i$,1rym especially excited about the 
mathematical
      > >> > > expression editor.&nbsp; And i think you$,1ryll enjoy some of 
the
      > >> > > other surprises i$,1ryve added.<br><br>This application also
      > >> > > introduces a new concept for quickly differentiating between 
controls
      > >> > > in
      > >> > > the editor$,1rys interface. In applications designed for sighted
      > >> > > users, components are visually distinct: buttons appear raised, 
text
      > >> > > boxes appear inset, and each item differs in some way that 
suggests
      > >> > > its
      > >> > > intended function. Page Designer achieves this effect 
auditorily. The
      > >> > > application plays programmatic sounds in parallel with voice 
output
      > >> > > to
      > >> > > quickly identify both an object$,1rys type and its value. So 
rather
      > >> > > than speaking "OK button", the editor speaks "OK" and plays a 
popping
      > >> > > sound at the same moment, effectively saving half the number of
      > >> > > syllables. Textboxes are associated with a tapping sound; picture
      > >> > > boxes
      > >> > > are accompanied by the sound of a camera shutter; the volume of a
      > >> > > radio
      > >> > > button$,1rys sound varies depending its selection
      > >> > > state.<br><br>Visit
      > >> > > this link to download the application:&nbsp;
      > >> > > 
http://here-i-am.sourceforge.net/downloads/Here-I-Am_Page-Designer1.zip<br>The
      > >> > > executable is named here-i-am_page-designer.<br><br>Please have
      > >> > > patience
      > >> > > with it.&nbsp; This is only a beta version of the program.&nbsp;
      > >> > > Also,
      > >> > > the interface is very different and takes some getting used
      > >> > > to.<br><br>i
      > >> > > hate making concessions for JAWS, but i$,1ryve changed the
      > >> > > navigation
      > >> > > keys to ensure my program doesn$,1ryt conflict.&nbsp; As 
before, the
      > >> > > navigation model arranges content into a hierarchy with parent 
nodes
      > >> > > corresponding to higher levels of abstraction and child nodes
      > >> > > corresponding to lower levels of abstraction. To see more 
details of
      > >> > > an
      > >> > > object, press spacebar. If at any point you becomes lost, 
pressing
      > >> > > Escape will move the selection up one level of abstraction, 
revealing
      > >> > > a
      > >> > > "bigger picture".<br><br>Unfortunately, this program is still far
      > >> > > from
      > >> > > the screen reader i envision.&nbsp; This is just a self-voicing
      > >> > > application, and the objects do not correspond to actual objects 
on
      > >> > > the
      > >> > > screen, so it probably lacks much of the functionality to which 
you
      > >> > > may
      > >> > > be accustomed.&nbsp; But i feel like i$,1rym slowly getting
      > >> > > closer.<br><br>Hope you enjoy it,<br><br>dusty.......<br><br><br
      > >> > > /><hr
      > >> > > />Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger
      > >> > > Caf,Ai. <a
      > >> > > 
href='http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline'
      > >> > > target='_new'>Stop by today!</a></body>
      > >> > > </html>
      > >> > -- 
      > >> > Your life is like a penny. You're going to lose it. The question 
is:
      > >> > How do
      > >> > you spend it?
      > >> >
      > >> > John Covici
      > >> > covici@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx'カ翰学ョf渇旛jxハ恭・xjリカ淌 ュ迥ヒ「ク・嘯カ・nX
      > >> __________
      > >> View the list's information and change your settings at
      > >> http://www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
      > >>
      > >
      > > _________________________________________________________________
      > > Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You!
      > > http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us
      > 
      > __________
      > View the list's information and change your settings at
      > http://www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
      > 
      > __________
      > View the list's information and change your settings at 
      > http://www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
      > 


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