Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 21:08:35 +0200
From: Octavian Rasnita <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Commodo
I don't want to use Jaws with an english sinthesizer, but as I said, I
have
no other choice, because in the first time I need a sinthesizer that can
speak very fast and clear, and there is no such sinthesizer for romanian.
I've wrote FS and they told me about those settings in Jaws. I've made
them,
but without succeeding to make Eloquence speak exactly like in Jaws 6.
Octavian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jamal Mazrui" <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 9:21 PM
Subject: Re: Commodo
> Hi Octavian,
> Have you reported the problem to FS, and if so, what has been the
> response? FS may, indeed, decide the number of customers helped is not
> worth the development cost, but it may not be aware that this is a
> problem
> significant enough to deter a user from upgrading from JAWS 6.
>
> I'm curious how often users want to read another language with an
> English
> synthesizer. If that works best for you, so be it, but if this is
> essentially a hack, then it seems unfair to suggest the problem is with
> JAWS support of foreign languages, and to expect application developers
> to
> support JAWS 6 because of this aspect. Being unfamiliar with how blind
> users of other languages generally operate, I hope these are reasonable
> questions to ask.
>
> Jamal
> On
> Thu, 1 Nov 2007, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
>
>> Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 08:38:18 +0200
>> From: Octavian Rasnita <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx>
>> Reply-To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: Commodo
>>
>> Well, I guess they don't really care about this issue, because I think
>> there
>> are no many customers that need to read a text in romanian language
>> with
>> the
>> english synthesizer.
>> Unfortunately there is no a similar synthesizer in romanian language.
>> There
>> is one that works pretty fast named WinTalker but it sounds very
>> robotic
>> and
>> it doesn't work fast enough. There is also one named Ivona with a
>> romanian
>> voice named Carmen, a very good quality voice, but which is too less
>> responsive to be used for day by day tasks, and if it use with a high
>> speed,
>> it doesn't sound very well, and there is also a Dolphin hardware synth
>> that
>> some users like, but I don't really like it either.
>>
>> So I need to use the English Eloquence with romanian texts.
>>
>> In this case, why should FS bother about this small problem?
>>
>> Jaws 7 started to use UTF-8 or something like that, and since then,
>> the
>> Eloquence doesn't work well, because it reads s instead of degrees, or
>> t
>> instead of thorn.
>>
>> But even Windows has some issues I guess, because when I switched from
>> Windows 2000 to Win XP I've noticed that when typing right alt+S or t,
>> or
>> a,
>> Jaws doesn't speak the typed letter. It is typed, but Jaws doesn't
>> read
>> it
>> even it is set to speak each typed letter.
>>
>> I've made some changes in a configuration file in Jaws for letting it
>> read
>> correctly those letters, but the result was pretty bad.
>>
>> In this situation, I don't think it would be a benefit to use an
>> editor
>> like
>> Commodo, especially that it doesn't have many additional features but
>> it
>> surely has some features missing.
>>
>> Octavian
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jamal Mazrui" <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 3:56 AM
>> Subject: Re: Commodo
>>
>>
>> >I know you've mentioned this JAWS problem before. It surprises me
>> >that
>> > JAWS continues to be worse with special characters ever since JAWS
>> > 6.
>> > I
>> > know that software sometimes takes a step back in an area while
>> > other
>> > features are being added, but I would think that Freedom Scientific
>> > has
>> > to
>> > correct such a problem for international customers. What does it
>> > say
>> > about the issue?
>> >
>> > Jamal
>> > On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, Octavian
>> > Rasnita wrote:
>> >
>> >> Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 21:25:07 +0200
>> >> From: Octavian Rasnita <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx>
>> >> Reply-To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> Subject: Re: Commodo
>> >>
>> >> Jaws 7, 8, and probably 9 don't work well with any application if
>> >> the
>> >> users
>> >> need to use special chars in other languages, so it wouldn't be an
>> >> advantage, because I've seen that Commodo also miss some features,
>> >> not
>> >> only
>> >> accessibility features.
>> >>
>> >> Octavian
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Aaron Leventhal" <aaronlev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 8:51 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: Commodo
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Hi Octavian,
>> >> >
>> >> > I just saw at the end of this that you are using JAWS 6.
>> >> > Unfortunately
>> >> > JAWS only started making Mozilla technologies accessible since
>> >> > something
>> >> > like JAWS 7.1
>> >> >
>> >> > You ask if Firefox is the same. I would say no -- we (largely
>> >> > myself)
>> >> > have
>> >> > put a large amount of effort specifically into making Firefox
>> >> > itself
>> >> > accessible. No such effort has yet gone into Komodo (note -- it's
>> >> > spelled
>> >> > with a K and one M).
>> >> >
>> >> > It would be great to find out if more recent versions of JAWS
>> >> > (such
>> >> > as
>> >> > the
>> >> > JAWS 9 beta) work better with Komodo.
>> >> >
>> >> > - Aaron
>> >> >
>> >> > Octavian Rasnita wrote:
>> >> >> Hi,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I have installed again Commodo and here is what I found:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 1. If I press Insert+num pad minus in order to route the Jaws
>> >> >> cursor
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> the PC cursor, sometimes the menu is activated, but only
>> >> >> sometimes.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 2. I needed to use the Jaws cursor, because right after starting
>> >> >> Commodo,
>> >> >> the editor is not accessible. I expected to press Insert+Tab and
>> >> >> hear
>> >> >> "edit", but instead I heard something more strange.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 3. I opened the File menu, and I selected "New" and I pressed
>> >> >> enter
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> in that moment I've seen that the new option has a submenu which
>> >> >> is
>> >> >> not
>> >> >> announced by Jaws. Does Commodo need some special scripts which
>> >> >> are
>> >> >> not
>> >> >> provided by Jaws 6? I am using Jaws 6 because the Eloquence from
>> >> >> newer
>> >> >> versions of Jaws doesn't read the special chars correctly.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 4. I chosen to create a new file and it appeared a list with
>> >> >> file
>> >> >> formats, telling "Templates list Text 20 of 22, -85004040 of
>> >> >> 0"...
>> >> >> or
>> >> >> a
>> >> >> closed number.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I've noticed that the FruitBasket program made by Jamal with XUL
>> >> >> works
>> >> >> the same, telling that garbage with minus 85000000 of 0.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 5. After choosing "Perl file" and pressing enter, it created a
>> >> >> new
>> >> >> tab
>> >> >> named "perl1.pl" or something like that. I cannot read the exact
>> >> >> title
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> the tab, because I cannot use the Jaws cursor well in Commodo.
>> >> >> If I
>> >> >> route
>> >> >> the Jaws cursor to the PC cursor, I see that the menus are
>> >> >> activated.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 6. Another problem I've seen is because If I just move the Jaws
>> >> >> cursor, a
>> >> >> menu seems to activate itself without needing any click. This is
>> >> >> very
>> >> >> bad, because I can't read the screen with the Jaws cursor.
>> >> >> Anything I do, I cannot read the titles of tab pages with the
>> >> >> Jaws
>> >> >> cursor.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 7. Now in the editing area, if I press Insert+tab, instead of
>> >> >> telling
>> >> >> me
>> >> >> "edit" like most text editors, it tells me a very long string
>> >> >> which
>> >> >> is
>> >> >> not nice at all".
>> >> >> Do I need to change the Windows Class of the editing area? I
>> >> >> think
>> >> >> I'll
>> >> >> try this. (I also need to change the highlight color assignment,
>> >> >> because
>> >> >> if I select a text in the editor, Jaws cannot read that text).
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 8. I've tried changing something in the file then save it. I've
>> >> >> seen
>> >> >> that the "Save as" window doesn't allow us choosing the encoding
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> file (which is not very important to be right here) but it also
>> >> >> don't
>> >> >> allow us to choose the end of line format in which we want to
>> >> >> save
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> file (Unix/Win/Mac), and this is important to be right here, at
>> >> >> least
>> >> >> for
>> >> >> me. This is not a bug, but just a missing feature.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 9. Sometimes if I press Control+Home in the editing area in
>> >> >> order
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> move
>> >> >> the cursor at the beginning of the file, Jaws tells me "File,
>> >> >> Edit,
>> >> >> Code... the name of all the menus.
>> >> >> It seems that this happends because Jaws can't discover where is
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> PC
>> >> >> cursor after pressing Control+S then escape. Now I can press the
>> >> >> up
>> >> >> or
>> >> >> down arrows, control+Tab or shift+Control+tab, but nothing
>> >> >> happends.
>> >> >> Jaws
>> >> >> doesn't speak anything. I think I need to restart Commodo.
>> >> >> If I try to use the Jaws cursor and I move it faster up or down,
>> >> >> Jaws
>> >> >> doesn't speak anything.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 10. I've tried to delete the text word by word with
>> >> >> control+backspace.
>> >> >> The words are deleted, but Jaws doesn't speak those words.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 11. I've tried to read the status bar of the window with the
>> >> >> Jaws
>> >> >> cursor,
>> >> >> because it is too much text there and I want to see the line and
>> >> >> column
>> >> >> number of the cursor, but I can't read the status bar neither,
>> >> >> because
>> >> >> each time I press Control+left or right arrows, a menu seems to
>> >> >> be
>> >> >> opened.
>> >> >> Now I've tried to see what's in that menu, because at a certain
>> >> >> moment
>> >> >> when moving the Jaws cursor with control+left or right, I hear
>> >> >> "menu".
>> >> >> I've tried then using up and down arrows. I have also tried
>> >> >> first
>> >> >> switching to the PC cursor, then using up or down, but with no
>> >> >> luck.
>> >> >> After doing that, I couldn't continue to read the text written
>> >> >> in
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> editing area. I couldn't even return to Outlook Express because
>> >> >> I
>> >> >> couldn't read anything in this message I write right now. So I
>> >> >> needed
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> close Commodo a second time, then I was able to write you.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 12. I've seen that message "minus 85 millions and something of
>> >> >> 0"
>> >> >> is
>> >> >> read
>> >> >> when using a combo box too. Too bad, especially that in combo
>> >> >> boxes
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> real number of the list elements is not read at all.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 13. In the "Find" dialog (Control+F), the buttons don't have a
>> >> >> hotkey
>> >> >> defined, or at least Jaws cannot detect it if using Shift+Num
>> >> >> pad
>> >> >> 5.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 14. Even if I press Control+F or Control+H for replace, the
>> >> >> Window
>> >> >> that
>> >> >> appear is always entitled "Find and replace". This can be
>> >> >> confusing
>> >> >> sometimes.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 15. I've tried to change some preferences from the Edit menu,
>> >> >> but
>> >> >> some
>> >> >> elements are not very accessible because the text that describes
>> >> >> them
>> >> >> are
>> >> >> not read entirely.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 16. After closing with Ok button that preferences window, now
>> >> >> Jaws
>> >> >> lost
>> >> >> the focus again and I cannot read the text from the editor with
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> PC
>> >> >> cursor. So I need to close and reopen Commodo once more.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 17. I like that Commodo has F8 and shift+F8 for jumping to the
>> >> >> previous
>> >> >> and next subroutine, but this can be done so easy with a find
>> >> >> for
>> >> >> "sub
>> >> >> "
>> >> >> then jumping around with F3 and Shift+F3 which is better known.
>> >> >> A
>> >> >> helpful
>> >> >> thing though. I hope it also offers the possibility of defining
>> >> >> bookmarks.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 18. Control+F8 for finding all functions could be nice if its
>> >> >> interface
>> >> >> would be better, but Jaws speaks so much garbage, that I would
>> >> >> prefer
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> search the subroutines manually than in that list. And after
>> >> >> displaying
>> >> >> that list of functions (subroutines), I wasn't able to make it
>> >> >> disappear
>> >> >> with an escape, but I needed to choose a subroutine then press
>> >> >> enter.
>> >> >> Maybe the focus moved to that subroutine, but then I wasn't able
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> move
>> >> >> the cursor from there, but first I needed to switch the focus to
>> >> >> another
>> >> >> application then come back.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 19. I've saved a file and Jaws lost again the focus. I've
>> >> >> pressed
>> >> >> for
>> >> >> a
>> >> >> few times some keys like control+Tab and others I don't remember
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> Jaws
>> >> >> read for me some checkboxes without names. I've even seen a list
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> files
>> >> >> and I pressed enter on one of them and Commodo told me that
>> >> >> there
>> >> >> is
>> >> >> no
>> >> >> such a file and asked me if I want to create it. Ok, I
>> >> >> understand I
>> >> >> might
>> >> >> have been doing something wrong, but I wanted to read again that
>> >> >> dialog
>> >> >> message but I couldn't do it and this is not ok.
>> >> >> Jaws was not reading anything, so I have chosen that I don't
>> >> >> want
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> create that file.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 20. I couldn't see an easy way of defining more bookmarks like
>> >> >> in
>> >> >> TextPad
>> >> >> and this feature is very important for me.
>> >> >> I've seen other things like breakpoints and other things, but no
>> >> >> hotkeys
>> >> >> for creating a bookmark, deleting a bookmark, jumping to the
>> >> >> previous
>> >> >> and next bookmark, and deleting all the bookmarks.
>> >> >> Isn't this possible with Commodo?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Anyway, as you might have seen, Commodo is very hard accessible
>> >> >> at
>> >> >> least
>> >> >> with Jaws 6 without special scripts for it, but even if it can
>> >> >> be
>> >> >> made
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> be more accessible, it doesn't have some features other editors
>> >> >> have.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Is Firefox same... "accessible"?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Octavian
>> >> >>
>> >> >> __________
>> >> >> View the list's information and change your settings at
>> >> >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> > __________
>> >> > View the list's information and change your settings at
>> >> > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> __________
>> >> View the list's information and change your settings at
>> >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>> >>
>> > __________
>> > View the list's information and change your settings at
>> > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>> >
>>
>> __________
>> View the list's information and change your settings at
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>>
> __________
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>
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