Re: C++ and I are getting divorced.

  • From: Dave <davidct1209@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 06:43:19 -0700

I agree with this though I mentioned computer science fundamentals
only because ultimately, if a beginner wants to understand what's
going on, a rigorous path to take is learning a little theory along
with trying to hack on a language.  Certainly C# and higher level
languages have abstracted away much of the complexities of computing,
but a little theory goes a long way for some people from what I've
experienced rather than typing into an IDE and hitting compile (and
repeat until frustration sets in).
On 7/28/10, Jamal Mazrui <empower@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> I also meant to say that a beginner who asks about a starting language
> on this list is probably not a computer science major wanting to learn
> the theory and structure of computers and operating systems.  Rather,
> they are probably a self-taught, part-time learner.  Even CS majors
> usually start with Java these days rather than C, avoiding the
> nightmares of memory management.
>
> Jamal
>
> On 7/28/2010 8:18 AM, Jamal Mazrui wrote:
>> I completely agree.  Just as it became generally no longer necessary to
>> learn about manipulating computer registers in assembler, it is no
>> longer necessary, in general, to learn about the memory management that
>> C requires. It is not helpful to send a beginner down the minefield of C
>> or C++ in the belief that it will build their character. I think it is
>> better to start with a language that is simpler and more forgiving, thus
>> giving them the experience of successful programming, including simple
>> GUIs after starting with console programs (hardly anyone develops a GUI
>> with native C anymore).
>>
>> Building successful, genuinely useful programs increases one's
>> confidence and passion about the power of programming. Tripping over
>> every other step discourages one. I started with higher level languages,
>> have gone as low as C# afterward, and been gratified by the results of
>> that path.
>>
>> I recommend that beginners start with AutoIT, Visual Basic .NET, Python,
>> or Ruby. Each of these has pros and cons, and I wish there was a single
>> language that combined the best of them. As the Sodbeans project grows
>> from experience, a beginner should also consider that environment.
>>
>> Jamal
>>
>> On 7/27/2010 3:22 PM, Jared Wright wrote:
>>> I understand this prospective and started myself on C++, but think
>>> there is a certain mindset that benefits from learning certain auxiliary
>>> features later if possible. Think of it like a video game: the video
>>> game only teaches you the gameplay elements that you need to progress to
>>> the next level and teaches you more advanced concepts when a need for
>>> their understanding arises. I think it's no secret that we learn faster
>>> and in more useful ways in a video game setting than in the more
>>> traditional academia computer science and so many other fields force
>>> down students' throats.
>>>
>>> Additionally, C++ is less used now for basic end user applications like
>>> those you start programming with anyway. I think something like Perl or
>>> Python is both a better initial launchpad as well as more practical in
>>> the industry moving forward. You don't even really HAVE to learn C++
>>> now, learning C# is almost more important. Yes you learn more about deep
>>> programming concepts learning with it, but follow that logic and you
>>> should learn in machine code, no? Even ten years ago C++ was such a
>>> common language for so many types of programs. WE didn't have the nice
>>> scripting language wrappers for low level functions that we enjoy now.
>>> It made sense to learn it out of the gate, because it probably wasn't
>>> going to be too long before you truly needed to write something real in
>>> C++. Now its uses are more specialized, (and I'm talking relative to C++
>>> ten years ago here) and I think this somewhat jeopardizes it as a good
>>> starting language. Just my thoughts, of course.
>>>
>>> On 07/27/2010 12:46 PM, Tyler Littlefield wrote:
>>>> Why something "forgivving," though? IMO it's much easier to learn with
>>>> something strict and move to other languages; not only will you code
>>>> better, but you will understand more about what's going on, rather
>>>> than just accept the fact that it does what you want however you may
>>>> write it.
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Tyler Littlefield
>>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>>> Twitter: sorressean
>>>>
>>>> On Jul 27, 2010, at 8:16 AM, Alex Hall wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> JS because it is, as I said, quite forgiving, and it lets you practice
>>>>> basics like looping and conditions without needing to worry about data
>>>>> types or managing projects in a massive IDE. I do not recommend giving
>>>>> up completely, rather, use another language to pin down the basics,
>>>>> get good at that language, then come back to cpp to continue learning
>>>>> it now that you have the concepts of OOP in your mind.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 7/27/10, Tyler Littlefield<tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>> javascript? Seriously? python was a good solution though, you just
>>>>>> need to
>>>>>> get used to indentation. Better to keep slogging along with cpp
>>>>>> than to
>>>>>> switch half way through, because essentially your just giving up on
>>>>>> something.
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Tyler Littlefield
>>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>>>>> Twitter: sorressean
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jul 27, 2010, at 8:09 AM, Alex Hall wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you want to try programming, I recommend either Javascript (a web
>>>>>>> language, but it is forgiving and easy to understand) or Python,
>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>> is, in my opinion, a lot easier than cpp. I definitely do not
>>>>>>> recommend giving up. As Tyler said, everyone who learns to program
>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>> a rough time of it at first, but eventually you get better and learn
>>>>>>> from past mistakes, and learning one language that you find you
>>>>>>> like a
>>>>>>> lot will help you learn other languages in the future, since they all
>>>>>>> have the underlying principles of looping, conditions, functions, and
>>>>>>> so on, though they all implement these in different ways.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 7/27/10, Tyler Littlefield<tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I guess, there is a better analogy. Nothing comes to you easy; you
>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> crawl before you walk, walk before you run. Look at it like
>>>>>>>> playing an
>>>>>>>> instrument. You don't just sit down and pick up a complex song in 5
>>>>>>>> minutes.
>>>>>>>> Something that may help you is to go go look at code that does
>>>>>>>> what you
>>>>>>>> want. Google for like "c++ elseif" and see what pops up.
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>> Tyler Littlefield
>>>>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>>>>>>> Twitter: sorressean
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Jul 27, 2010, at 7:55 AM, Tyler Littlefield wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you want to give up after the first few syntax errors, go for
>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>> Otherwise, keep working, your going through what everyone who
>>>>>>>>> learns c++
>>>>>>>>> did, and you'll get it.
>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>> Tyler Littlefield
>>>>>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>>>>>>>> Twitter: sorressean
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Jul 27, 2010, at 7:52 AM, Jes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lol thought I'd put a humorous subject in there to try and lift my
>>>>>>>>>> spirits a little bit. I've been working on a project for five days
>>>>>>>>>> straight, sacrificing sleep and other stuff to get the stupid
>>>>>>>>>> thing
>>>>>>>>>> done,
>>>>>>>>>> and I've decided that while I like programming, C++ is a bit to
>>>>>>>>>> complicated for me at this point. I am a musician, so after I
>>>>>>>>>> get this
>>>>>>>>>> beast of an assignment done, I'm divorcing C++ and moving back
>>>>>>>>>> to music
>>>>>>>>>> for a bit. Audio editors and sequencers all do whatever I tell
>>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>> too,
>>>>>>>>>> they don't bitch at me like M S Visual Studio or GCC.
>>>>>>>>>> As the average pc user declares, "They, just, work. "
>>>>>>>>>> Grin. I won't be able to make anything more than simple
>>>>>>>>>> programs, no
>>>>>>>>>> matter how much I like programming.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> __________
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Have a great day,
>>>>>>> Alex (msg sent from GMail website)
>>>>>>> mehgcap@xxxxxxxxx; http://www.facebook.com/mehgcap
>>>>>>> __________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Have a great day,
>>>>> Alex (msg sent from GMail website)
>>>>> mehgcap@xxxxxxxxx; http://www.facebook.com/mehgcap
>>>>> __________
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