Hi Jamal, That's why I'm creating Jim's Vb Notes. I'm determined to go from Cobol to something. Since I already know LotusScript, which pretty much is almost exactly like the old QBasic, I know I just about have the language part of Visual Basic .Net licked. Now it's just a matter of conquering my fear of objects and I'm on my way. And making the notes is almost like theropy for myself, so it's not so much that I'm a wonderful person for making the notes, it's that I'm exercizing demons. That was not a pun for the Unix people. Jim Jim Jim Homme, Usability Services, Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jamal Mazrui Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 8:18 AM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Cc: Jared Wright Subject: Re: C++ and I are getting divorced. I completely agree. Just as it became generally no longer necessary to learn about manipulating computer registers in assembler, it is no longer necessary, in general, to learn about the memory management that C requires. It is not helpful to send a beginner down the minefield of C or C++ in the belief that it will build their character. I think it is better to start with a language that is simpler and more forgiving, thus giving them the experience of successful programming, including simple GUIs after starting with console programs (hardly anyone develops a GUI with native C anymore). Building successful, genuinely useful programs increases one's confidence and passion about the power of programming. Tripping over every other step discourages one. I started with higher level languages, have gone as low as C# afterward, and been gratified by the results of that path. I recommend that beginners start with AutoIT, Visual Basic .NET, Python, or Ruby. Each of these has pros and cons, and I wish there was a single language that combined the best of them. As the Sodbeans project grows from experience, a beginner should also consider that environment. Jamal On 7/27/2010 3:22 PM, Jared Wright wrote: > I understand this prospective and started myself on C++, but think > there is a certain mindset that benefits from learning certain auxiliary > features later if possible. Think of it like a video game: the video > game only teaches you the gameplay elements that you need to progress to > the next level and teaches you more advanced concepts when a need for > their understanding arises. I think it's no secret that we learn faster > and in more useful ways in a video game setting than in the more > traditional academia computer science and so many other fields force > down students' throats. > > Additionally, C++ is less used now for basic end user applications like > those you start programming with anyway. I think something like Perl or > Python is both a better initial launchpad as well as more practical in > the industry moving forward. You don't even really HAVE to learn C++ > now, learning C# is almost more important. Yes you learn more about deep > programming concepts learning with it, but follow that logic and you > should learn in machine code, no? Even ten years ago C++ was such a > common language for so many types of programs. WE didn't have the nice > scripting language wrappers for low level functions that we enjoy now. > It made sense to learn it out of the gate, because it probably wasn't > going to be too long before you truly needed to write something real in > C++. Now its uses are more specialized, (and I'm talking relative to C++ > ten years ago here) and I think this somewhat jeopardizes it as a good > starting language. Just my thoughts, of course. > > On 07/27/2010 12:46 PM, Tyler Littlefield wrote: >> Why something "forgivving," though? IMO it's much easier to learn with >> something strict and move to other languages; not only will you code >> better, but you will understand more about what's going on, rather >> than just accept the fact that it does what you want however you may >> write it. >> Thanks, >> Tyler Littlefield >> http://tds-solutions.net >> Twitter: sorressean >> >> On Jul 27, 2010, at 8:16 AM, Alex Hall wrote: >> >>> JS because it is, as I said, quite forgiving, and it lets you practice >>> basics like looping and conditions without needing to worry about data >>> types or managing projects in a massive IDE. I do not recommend giving >>> up completely, rather, use another language to pin down the basics, >>> get good at that language, then come back to cpp to continue learning >>> it now that you have the concepts of OOP in your mind. >>> >>> On 7/27/10, Tyler Littlefield<tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>> javascript? Seriously? python was a good solution though, you just >>>> need to >>>> get used to indentation. Better to keep slogging along with cpp than to >>>> switch half way through, because essentially your just giving up on >>>> something. >>>> Thanks, >>>> Tyler Littlefield >>>> http://tds-solutions.net >>>> Twitter: sorressean >>>> >>>> On Jul 27, 2010, at 8:09 AM, Alex Hall wrote: >>>> >>>>> If you want to try programming, I recommend either Javascript (a web >>>>> language, but it is forgiving and easy to understand) or Python, which >>>>> is, in my opinion, a lot easier than cpp. I definitely do not >>>>> recommend giving up. As Tyler said, everyone who learns to program has >>>>> a rough time of it at first, but eventually you get better and learn >>>>> from past mistakes, and learning one language that you find you like a >>>>> lot will help you learn other languages in the future, since they all >>>>> have the underlying principles of looping, conditions, functions, and >>>>> so on, though they all implement these in different ways. >>>>> >>>>> On 7/27/10, Tyler Littlefield<tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>> I guess, there is a better analogy. Nothing comes to you easy; you >>>>>> need >>>>>> to >>>>>> crawl before you walk, walk before you run. Look at it like >>>>>> playing an >>>>>> instrument. You don't just sit down and pick up a complex song in 5 >>>>>> minutes. >>>>>> Something that may help you is to go go look at code that does >>>>>> what you >>>>>> want. Google for like "c++ elseif" and see what pops up. >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> Tyler Littlefield >>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net >>>>>> Twitter: sorressean >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jul 27, 2010, at 7:55 AM, Tyler Littlefield wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> If you want to give up after the first few syntax errors, go for it. >>>>>>> Otherwise, keep working, your going through what everyone who >>>>>>> learns c++ >>>>>>> did, and you'll get it. >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> Tyler Littlefield >>>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net >>>>>>> Twitter: sorressean >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jul 27, 2010, at 7:52 AM, Jes wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Lol thought I'd put a humorous subject in there to try and lift my >>>>>>>> spirits a little bit. I've been working on a project for five days >>>>>>>> straight, sacrificing sleep and other stuff to get the stupid thing >>>>>>>> done, >>>>>>>> and I've decided that while I like programming, C++ is a bit to >>>>>>>> complicated for me at this point. I am a musician, so after I >>>>>>>> get this >>>>>>>> beast of an assignment done, I'm divorcing C++ and moving back >>>>>>>> to music >>>>>>>> for a bit. Audio editors and sequencers all do whatever I tell them >>>>>>>> too, >>>>>>>> they don't bitch at me like M S Visual Studio or GCC. >>>>>>>> As the average pc user declares, "They, just, work. " >>>>>>>> Grin. I won't be able to make anything more than simple >>>>>>>> programs, no >>>>>>>> matter how much I like programming. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> __________ >>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> __________ >>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>>>>>> >>>>>> __________ >>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Have a great day, >>>>> Alex (msg sent from GMail website) >>>>> mehgcap@xxxxxxxxx; http://www.facebook.com/mehgcap >>>>> __________ >>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>>>> >>>> __________ >>>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Have a great day, >>> Alex (msg sent from GMail website) >>> mehgcap@xxxxxxxxx; http://www.facebook.com/mehgcap >>> __________ >>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>> >> __________ >> View the list's information and change your settings at >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >> > > __________ > View the list's information and change your settings at > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind > __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are intended solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. 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