Re: BlindConfidential: Learning to Program for the Blind
- From: james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx
- To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 08:35:14 -0500
Hi Teddy,
One of the points Ken and I brought up about Python is that there are
programs that fix indentation. That means that you could write Python code
ignoring the indentation issue, then run it through a program like that.
Much of this is really a matter of personal preference on your part. You
are trying to take what you feel is right for you and sometimes generalize
it and make it part of what all other blind people should feel, prefer or
do.
It's not really possible for me to defend using Python over other languages
because I really don't know Python very well. All I can do is copy stuff
out of Python books that naturally talk about its strengths and bring up
what they feel are the weaknesses of other languages.
With that out of the way, I agree that it is easier to write code in a
language that either uses some sort of punctuation or statement that makes
a screen reader speak and tell you where you are in the code. But, if you
choose to write code in Python, you can do it, and there are ways to get
around the issues you brought up. What you prefer to do may be different
from what may be good to do for some other reason.
One last point. Regarding JAWS, you can go into the Options > Basics menu
and turn off all that reading of extra stuff about reading what to do with
controls. You don't have to script for that.
Thanks.
Jim
James D Homme, , Usability Engineering, Highmark Inc.,
james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx, 412-544-1810
"Never doubt that a thoughtful group of committed citizens can change the
world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
"Octavian
Rasnita"
<orasnita@xxxxxxx To
om> programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent by: cc
programmingblind-
bounce@freelists. Subject
org Re: BlindConfidential: Learning to
Program for the Blind
11/12/2007 08:15
AM
Please respond to
programmingblind@
freelists.org
Are you kidding, right? :-)
Some programmers need to do programs that are more complicated than a
FruitBasket application, and that editor doesn't solve any problem.
It just can help. It is a kind of workaround for those who are forced to
use
python, but it is not a solution of this problem.
I've spend my time to modify the Jaws scripts because when I press
insert+Tab on the desktop or a tree view I don't like to hear "Press left
or
right arrows to move" or something like that, and I have also made a
dictionary set in Outlook Express because I don't like to hear "Outlook
Express Message list list view", because it is too long, and I've set it to
say just "List view" and "tree view" and nothing more.
So it is horrible to hear Jaws again and again telling me the indentation
when I move the cursor up or down and the indentation changes.
It would be much easier to use a normal programming language instead.
Octavian
----- Original Message -----
From: <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: BlindConfidential: Learning to Program for the Blind
> Hi,
> EdSharp and JAWS sound schemes both cure this problem. Besides that,
there
> are probably programs that can fix indentation issues. I don'tfeel this
is
> a problem. We have a Python fruit basket program do we not?
>
> Jim e
>
> James D Homme, , Usability Engineering, Highmark Inc.,
> james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx, 412-544-1810
>
> "Never doubt that a thoughtful group of committed citizens can change the
> world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
>
>
>
>
> "inthaneelf"
> <inthaneelf@roadr
> unner.com> To
> Sent by: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> programmingblind- cc
> bounce@freelists.
> org Subject
> Re: BlindConfidential: Learning to
> Program for the Blind
> 11/12/2007 03:01
> AM
>
>
> Please respond to
> programmingblind@
> freelists.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I was thinking the same thing, but didn't want to argue with the gent
over
> it.
>
> especially since he has already done a lot of work on this area, and
> probably with python as the central point of it.
>
> but as long as it's been said, then I might as well put my 2 ¢worth in.
>
> respects,
> inthane
> • For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and
> Links
> to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit me at:
> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
> • to be able to view a simple programming project in several programming
> languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
> http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Octavian Rasnita
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 10:58 PM
> Subject: Re: BlindConfidential: Learning to Program for the Blind
>
> Unfortunately Python is one of the most blind-unfriendly languages
because
> of its requirement for indentation, so I don't think a blind person
should
> start programming with python, because she or he might think that the
> indentation is important for all the languages.
>
> Octavian
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Arnold Bailey
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 1:27 AM
> Subject: Re: BlindConfidential: Learning to Program for the Blind
>
> Chris,
>
> I have also been looking into the same issue. If you look at my website
> http://www.blind411.org/ITCareers/ under teachers"->course plans, I am
> building a series of course sessions. These are being presented to blind
> and visually impaired middle and high school students in our school
> district. In my approach I will:
>
> 1. Introduce Information Technology as a career. You'll see the
> presentation link.
> 2. I decided on Python to introduce the concept of programming. It is an
> interpretive and can be executed interactively. This allows hands on and
> experience the results immediately. Also, the IDLE (GUI) interface seems
> to be better for the visually impaired because of the font; and, the
> command line interface is needed for Jaws for the blind students. You'll
> see a link to my scenario. Downloading and installing python is easy.
> You'll see the link there also.
> 3. My next plan is to teach Java to any of the students who feel like
> trying programming. I picked Java because it is widely taught in colleges
> as an introduction to compsci. It is also C like and it is object
> oriented. If you click in the nav links on learning Java, you see the
> links to install it and some tutorials.
>
> The site is intended for student instruction. The references and links
> were largely gotten through this mailing list by a lot of generous and
> knowledgeable programmers. I kept references/tutorials/etc. to a minimum
> because there is way too much information out there. Sometimes focus is
> needed.
>
> I have many years of programming experience in more languages than I care
> to admit. I have only a minimal cursory knowledge of Java; but, when I
> start instruction, I'll read up on the Java tutorials. I planned to
> instruct via email/skype and the online tutorials; but, I haven't gotten
> to that point yet. In a couple months, I should be ready.
>
> Contact me via email if I can help in any way.
>
> Arnold
>
>
> On Nov 11, 2007 4:10 PM, inthaneelf <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Chris,
>
> I don't totally agree with the statement about learning jaws scripting
> to
> learn programming, but the rest of those recommendations work. more on
> this
> though, is what programming instructional classes (both in there high
> school, and outside/after)are available in there area.
>
> if any or all the basic languages are readily available, then what does
> he
> wish to program, as we all know, the language should be based on his
> learning style, and what he wishes to do, anywhere from visual
basic.net
> and
> C#, to java, to C and C++ or raw assembler are available to him, along
> with
> html, xhtml, xml, asp.net incorporated with C# or VB, PHP, and the rest
> of
> that group.
>
> so, I'd say that the main question is what does this student wish to
do,
>
> then they can go from there!
>
> if you want, give the person that contacted you my E mail and I'd be
> more
> than willing to talk with them at length on what can be done, and since
> I am
> an information monger, and not much of a programmer, but do have some
> knowledge in programming, I think... I'm not as set in stone as to a
> particular language or learning method, so may be able to tackle it
with
> a
> bit more "All around lack of preference".
>
> HTH,
> Inthane
> • For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and
> Links
> to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit me at:
> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
> • to be able to view a simple programming project in several
programming
> languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
> http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@xxxxxxxxx >
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 7:50 AM
> Subject: RE: BlindConfidential: Learning to Program for the Blind
>
>
> > Hi there,
> > I would presonally recommend this student to:
> > * Subscribe to number of mailing list such as Blind Programming list.
> > * Search on Google for tutorials on basic programming.
> > * Take online AP Computer Science course to learn about Java, object
> > oriented programming, etc.
> > The best way to start in programming would be learning about JAWS
> scripts.
> > This should allow a student to learn how JAWS actually works, under
> what a
> > variable, function and other things in programming mean and to learn
> how
> > to
> > interpret script languages. Then I would recommend this person to
> study C
> > or
> > Java. Or, if the student is interested, he can learn HTML to code
> > websites.
> > Cheers,
> > Joseph P.S. I'm also a high school student so I understand Wilkins'
> > situation.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Chris
> > Hofstader
> > Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 7:38 AM
> > To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: FW: BlindConfidential: Learning to Program for the Blind
> >
> > Can people here help this person?
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Anya Kogan [mailto:akogan3@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 1:47 PM
> > To: Chris.Hofstader@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: BlindConfidential: Learning to Program for the Blind
> >
> > Hi Chris,
> >
> > I am a graduate student at the Georgia Institute of Technology and
> also a
> > new volunteer at the Center for the Visually Impaired in Atlanta. I
> > assist
> > in teaching the computer class there to blind and visually impaired
> > students. I am sighted myself and very new to the challenges of
being
>
> > visually impaired. One of my students is a blind high-school age boy
> > named
> > Wilkens. Wilkens is very proficient in the computer basics using
> Jaws.
> > He
> > very quickly and easily surfs the net, types on Microsoft Word and
> uses
> > Microsoft Excel. He has now expressed interest in learning to
> program. I
> > am very new to programming myself, but would be willing to learn.
> > However,
> > how can I teach or at least assist a blind young man to program? I
am
> not
> > even sure where to begin. Can you recommend any resources or lend
> > any advice on this topic? Do you know of any online tutorials?
> > Courses? What language should he start with? Is there a first
> project
> > that
> > would benefit him? Any help that you can lend me would be most
> > appreciated.
> > Wilkens has a lot of drive and I would hate to have that go to waste.
> >
> > Best,
> > Anya
> >
> >
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> __________
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>
>
>
> --
> Arnold
> http://www.blind411.org
> http://www.blind411.org/ITCareers/V'ˊwfjxʋxjض ˢ+)nX
__________
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