Hi all, Jared had my intentions right. I only meant to use it as a very basic tool for interactive use to show a first time middle schooler what a program is. It is the interactive use that is a plus. My scenario doesn't require indentation, etc. After that first session I am using Java. Arnold On Nov 12, 2007 5:19 AM, Octavian Rasnita <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > To force is not a good thing, no matter if it is the indentation, or > defining variables, or limiting variables to hold only some types of data, > because a language that does that is not flexible. > > (Of course that all the non-flexible languages that don't allow too many > ways to do the same thing are prefered by teachers, but this doesn't mean > that they are the best for everything). > > Why a blind programmer should be forced to indent the code? The > indentation > is a good way of organizing a code visually, but for someone who cannot > see, > the visual organization is not important at all, and forcing a blind > programmer to indent the code would just make him be less productive > because > he should take care about things which are not important for him. > > A blind programmer should indent the code only if that code is shared with > other sighted users, but this is not the case always. > > Octavian > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jared Wright" <wright.jaredm@xxxxxxxxx> > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 10:07 AM > Subject: Re: BlindConfidential: Learning to Program for the Blind > > > > I've not dabbled in Python yet. With that disclaimer ut of the way, > isn't > > this possibly an argument in favor of Python being used as an > > introduction? I did all the programming I've done up until a couple > months > > ago (when I started my first course on it) completely on my own and self > > taught. One of the hardest things for me to adjust to is formatting > > properly for sighted readers. My screen reader cared little about white > > space, and the compiler cared even less. So remembering to format code > > properly this semester has cost me as much as real programming has. I > very > > much wish the programmer's elements of style were conveyed to me more > > forcefully early on, and I wonder if this might not just be a feather in > > Python's cap. Now, as I said, I've not got around to exploring Python, > and > > if it uses indentation rules that vary from the ones that people would > > typically like to see in other common languages, then I stand corrected. > > But taken completely on its own, the fact that Python requires > indentation > > hardly seems like it should disqualify it from being a good starting > > point. The fact that indentation is something that a blind programmer > > could so easily overlook makes me think that forcing it to be done > > correctly in the early stages wouldn't be such a bad thing. > > > > *shrug* > > A different prospective. > > > > JW > > > > Octavian Rasnita wrote: > >> Unfortunately Python is one of the most blind-unfriendly languages > >> because of its requirement for indentation, so I don't think a blind > >> person should start programming with python, because she or he might > >> think that the indentation is important for all the languages. > >> Octavian > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> *From:* Arnold Bailey <mailto:arnoldbail@xxxxxxxxx> > >> *To:* programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >> *Sent:* Monday, November 12, 2007 1:27 AM > >> *Subject:* Re: BlindConfidential: Learning to Program for the Blind > >> > >> Chris, > >> > >> I have also been looking into the same issue. If you look at my > >> website http://www.blind411.org/ITCareers/ under teachers"->course > >> plans, I am building a series of course sessions. These are being > >> presented to blind and visually impaired middle and high school > >> students in our school district. In my approach I will: > >> > >> 1. Introduce Information Technology as a career. You'll see the > >> presentation link. > >> 2. I decided on Python to introduce the concept of programming. It > >> is an interpretive and can be executed interactively. This allows > >> hands on and experience the results immediately. Also, the IDLE > >> (GUI) interface seems to be better for the visually impaired > >> because of the font; and, the command line interface is needed for > >> Jaws for the blind students. You'll see a link to my scenario. > >> Downloading and installing python is easy. You'll see the link > >> there also. > >> 3. My next plan is to teach Java to any of the students who feel > >> like trying programming. I picked Java because it is widely taught > >> in colleges as an introduction to compsci. It is also C like and > >> it is object oriented. If you click in the nav links on learning > >> Java, you see the links to install it and some tutorials. > >> > >> The site is intended for student instruction. The references and > >> links were largely gotten through this mailing list by a lot of > >> generous and knowledgeable programmers. I kept > >> references/tutorials/etc. to a minimum because there is way too > >> much information out there. Sometimes focus is needed. > >> > >> I have many years of programming experience in more languages than > >> I care to admit. I have only a minimal cursory knowledge of Java; > >> but, when I start instruction, I'll read up on the Java tutorials. > >> I planned to instruct via email/skype and the online tutorials; > >> but, I haven't gotten to that point yet. In a couple months, I > >> should be ready. > >> > >> Contact me via email if I can help in any way. > >> > >> Arnold > >> > >> > >> On Nov 11, 2007 4:10 PM, inthaneelf <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx > >> <mailto:inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote: > >> > >> Chris, > >> > >> I don't totally agree with the statement about learning jaws > >> scripting to > >> learn programming, but the rest of those recommendations work. > >> more on this > >> though, is what programming instructional classes (both in > >> there high > >> school, and outside/after)are available in there area. > >> > >> if any or all the basic languages are readily available, then > >> what does he > >> wish to program, as we all know, the language should be based > >> on his > >> learning style, and what he wishes to do, anywhere from visual > >> basic.net <http://basic.net> and > >> C#, to java, to C and C++ or raw assembler are available to > >> him, along with > >> html, xhtml, xml, asp.net <http://asp.net> incorporated with > >> C# or VB, PHP, and the rest of > >> that group. > >> > >> so, I'd say that the main question is what does this student > >> wish to do, > >> then they can go from there! > >> > >> if you want, give the person that contacted you my E mail and > >> I'd be more > >> than willing to talk with them at length on what can be done, > >> and since I am > >> an information monger, and not much of a programmer, but do > >> have some > >> knowledge in programming, I think... I'm not as set in stone > >> as to a > >> particular language or learning method, so may be able to > >> tackle it with a > >> bit more "All around lack of preference". > >> > >> HTH, > >> Inthane > >> • For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful > >> Programs, and Links > >> to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, > >> visit me at: > >> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com > >> • to be able to view a simple programming project in several > >> programming > >> languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at: > >> http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@xxxxxxxxx > >> <mailto:joseph.lee22590@xxxxxxxxx>> > >> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> > >> Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 7:50 AM > >> Subject: RE: BlindConfidential: Learning to Program for the > Blind > >> > >> > >> > Hi there, > >> > I would presonally recommend this student to: > >> > * Subscribe to number of mailing list such as Blind > >> Programming list. > >> > * Search on Google for tutorials on basic programming. > >> > * Take online AP Computer Science course to learn about > >> Java, object > >> > oriented programming, etc. > >> > The best way to start in programming would be learning about > >> JAWS scripts. > >> > This should allow a student to learn how JAWS actually > >> works, under what a > >> > variable, function and other things in programming mean and > >> to learn how > >> > to > >> > interpret script languages. Then I would recommend this > >> person to study C > >> > or > >> > Java. Or, if the student is interested, he can learn HTML to > >> code > >> > websites. > >> > Cheers, > >> > Joseph P.S. I'm also a high school student so I understand > >> Wilkins' > >> > situation. > >> > > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >> <mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >> > [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >> <mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of > >> Chris > >> > Hofstader > >> > Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 7:38 AM > >> > To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >> > Subject: FW: BlindConfidential: Learning to Program for the > >> Blind > >> > > >> > Can people here help this person? > >> > > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: Anya Kogan [mailto:akogan3@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > >> <mailto:akogan3@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>] > >> > Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 1:47 PM > >> > To: Chris.Hofstader@xxxxxxxxxxx > >> <mailto:Chris.Hofstader@xxxxxxxxxxx> > >> > Subject: BlindConfidential: Learning to Program for the Blind > >> > > >> > Hi Chris, > >> > > >> > I am a graduate student at the Georgia Institute of > >> Technology and also a > >> > new volunteer at the Center for the Visually Impaired in > >> Atlanta. I > >> > assist > >> > in teaching the computer class there to blind and visually > >> impaired > >> > students. I am sighted myself and very new to the > >> challenges of being > >> > visually impaired. One of my students is a blind > >> high-school age boy > >> > named > >> > Wilkens. Wilkens is very proficient in the computer basics > >> using Jaws. > >> > He > >> > very quickly and easily surfs the net, types on Microsoft > >> Word and uses > >> > Microsoft Excel. He has now expressed interest in learning > >> to program. I > >> > am very new to programming myself, but would be willing to > >> learn. > >> > However, > >> > how can I teach or at least assist a blind young man to > >> program? I am not > >> > even sure where to begin. Can you recommend any resources > >> or lend > >> > any advice on this topic? Do you know of any online > tutorials? > >> > Courses? What language should he start with? Is there a > >> first project > >> > that > >> > would benefit him? Any help that you can lend me would be > most > >> > appreciated. > >> > Wilkens has a lot of drive and I would hate to have that go > >> to waste. > >> > > >> > Best, > >> > Anya > >> > > >> > > >> > __________ NOD32 2610 (20071023) Information __________ > >> > > >> > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > >> > http://www.eset.com > >> > > >> > > >> > __________ > >> > View the list's information and change your settings at > >> > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind > >> <//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind> > >> > > >> > No virus found in this incoming message. > >> > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > >> > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.28/1123 - Release > >> Date: > >> > 11/10/2007 > >> > 3:47 PM > >> > > >> > > >> > No virus found in this outgoing message. > >> > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > >> > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.28/1123 - Release > >> Date: > >> > 11/10/2007 > >> > 3:47 PM > >> > > >> > > >> > __________ > >> > View the list's information and change your settings at > >> > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind > >> > > >> > >> __________ > >> View the list's information and change your settings at > >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Arnold > >> http://www.blind411.org > >> http://www.blind411.org/ITCareers/ > > > > __________ > > View the list's information and change your settings at > > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind > > > > __________ > View the list's information and change your settings at > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind > > -- Arnold http://www.blind411.org http://www.blind411.org/ITCareers/