Re: BlindConfidential: Learning to Program for the Blind

  • From: "Arnold Bailey" <arnoldbail@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 06:53:17 -0500

Hi all,

Jared had my intentions right. I only meant to use it as a very basic tool
for interactive use to show a first time middle schooler what a program is.
It is the interactive use that is a plus. My scenario doesn't require
indentation, etc. After that first session I am using Java.

Arnold

On Nov 12, 2007 5:19 AM, Octavian Rasnita <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> To force is not a good thing, no matter if it is the indentation, or
> defining variables, or limiting variables to hold only some types of data,
> because a language that does that is not flexible.
>
> (Of course that all the non-flexible languages that don't allow too many
> ways to do the same thing are prefered by teachers, but this doesn't mean
> that they are the best for everything).
>
> Why a blind programmer should be forced to indent the code? The
> indentation
> is a good way of organizing a code visually, but for someone who cannot
> see,
> the visual organization is not important at all, and forcing a blind
> programmer to indent the code would just make him be less productive
> because
> he should take care about things which are not important for him.
>
> A blind programmer should indent the code only if that code is shared with
> other sighted users, but this is not the case always.
>
> Octavian
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jared Wright" <wright.jaredm@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 10:07 AM
> Subject: Re: BlindConfidential: Learning to Program for the Blind
>
>
> > I've not dabbled in Python yet. With that disclaimer ut of the way,
> isn't
> > this possibly an argument in favor of Python being used as an
> > introduction? I did all the programming I've done up until a couple
> months
> > ago (when I started my first course on it) completely on my own and self
> > taught. One of the hardest things for me to adjust to is formatting
> > properly for sighted readers. My screen reader cared little about white
> > space, and the compiler cared even less. So remembering to format code
> > properly this semester has cost me as much as real programming has. I
> very
> > much wish the programmer's elements of style were conveyed to me more
> > forcefully early on, and I wonder if this might not just be a feather in
> > Python's cap. Now, as I said, I've not got around to exploring Python,
> and
> > if it uses indentation rules that vary from the ones that people would
> > typically like to see in other common languages, then I stand corrected.
> > But taken completely on its own, the fact that Python requires
> indentation
> > hardly seems like it should disqualify it from being a good starting
> > point. The fact that indentation is something that a blind programmer
> > could so easily overlook makes me think that forcing it to be done
> > correctly in the early stages wouldn't be such a bad thing.
> >
> > *shrug*
> > A different prospective.
> >
> > JW
> >
> > Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> >> Unfortunately Python is one of the most blind-unfriendly languages
> >> because of its requirement for indentation, so I don't think a blind
> >> person should start programming with python, because she or he might
> >> think that the indentation is important for all the languages.
> >>  Octavian
> >>
> >>     ----- Original Message -----
> >>     *From:* Arnold Bailey <mailto:arnoldbail@xxxxxxxxx>
> >>     *To:* programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>     <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>     *Sent:* Monday, November 12, 2007 1:27 AM
> >>     *Subject:* Re: BlindConfidential: Learning to Program for the Blind
> >>
> >>     Chris,
> >>
> >>     I have also been looking into the same issue. If you look at my
> >>     website http://www.blind411.org/ITCareers/ under teachers"->course
> >>     plans, I am building a series of course sessions. These are being
> >>     presented to blind and visually impaired middle and high school
> >>     students in our school district. In my approach I will:
> >>
> >>     1. Introduce Information Technology as a career. You'll see the
> >>     presentation link.
> >>     2. I decided on Python to introduce the concept of programming. It
> >>     is an interpretive and can be executed interactively. This allows
> >>     hands on and experience the results immediately. Also, the  IDLE
> >>     (GUI) interface seems to be better for the  visually impaired
> >>     because of the font; and, the command line interface is needed for
> >>     Jaws for the blind students. You'll see a link to my scenario.
> >>     Downloading and installing python is easy. You'll see the link
> >>     there also.
> >>     3. My next plan is to teach Java to any of the students who feel
> >>     like trying programming. I picked Java because it is widely taught
> >>     in colleges as an introduction to compsci. It is also C like and
> >>     it is object oriented. If you click in the nav links on learning
> >>     Java, you see the links to install it and some tutorials.
> >>
> >>     The site is intended for student instruction. The references and
> >>     links were largely gotten through  this mailing list by a lot of
> >>     generous and knowledgeable programmers. I kept
> >>     references/tutorials/etc. to a minimum because there is way too
> >>     much information out there. Sometimes focus is needed.
> >>
> >>     I have many years of programming experience in more languages than
> >>     I care to admit. I have only a minimal cursory knowledge of Java;
> >>     but, when I start instruction, I'll read up on the Java tutorials.
> >>     I planned to instruct via email/skype and the online tutorials;
> >>     but, I haven't gotten to that point yet. In a couple months, I
> >>     should be ready.
> >>
> >>     Contact me via email if I can help in any way.
> >>
> >>     Arnold
> >>
> >>
> >>     On Nov 11, 2007 4:10 PM, inthaneelf <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>     <mailto:inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
> >>
> >>         Chris,
> >>
> >>         I don't totally agree with the statement about learning jaws
> >>         scripting to
> >>         learn programming, but the rest of those recommendations work.
> >>          more on this
> >>         though, is what programming instructional classes (both in
> >>         there high
> >>         school, and outside/after)are available in there area.
> >>
> >>         if any or all the basic languages are readily available, then
> >>         what does he
> >>         wish to program, as we all know, the language should be based
> >>         on his
> >>         learning style, and what he wishes to do, anywhere from visual
> >>         basic.net <http://basic.net> and
> >>         C#, to java, to C and C++ or raw assembler are available to
> >>         him, along with
> >>         html, xhtml, xml, asp.net <http://asp.net> incorporated with
> >>         C# or VB, PHP, and the rest of
> >>         that group.
> >>
> >>         so, I'd say that the main question is what does this student
> >>         wish to do,
> >>         then they can go from there!
> >>
> >>         if you want, give the person that contacted you my E mail and
> >>         I'd be more
> >>         than willing to talk with them at length on what can be done,
> >>         and since I am
> >>         an information monger, and not much of a programmer, but do
> >>         have some
> >>         knowledge in programming, I think... I'm not as set in stone
> >>         as to a
> >>         particular language or learning method, so may be able to
> >>         tackle it with a
> >>         bit more "All around lack of preference".
> >>
> >>         HTH,
> >>         Inthane
> >>         • For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful
> >>         Programs, and Links
> >>         to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications,
> >>         visit me at:
> >>         http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
> >>         • to be able to view a simple programming project in several
> >>         programming
> >>         languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
> >>         http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
> >>
> >>         ----- Original Message -----
> >>         From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@xxxxxxxxx
> >>         <mailto:joseph.lee22590@xxxxxxxxx>>
> >>         To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>         <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
> >>         Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 7:50 AM
> >>         Subject: RE: BlindConfidential: Learning to Program for the
> Blind
> >>
> >>
> >>         > Hi there,
> >>         > I would presonally recommend this student to:
> >>         > * Subscribe to number of mailing list such as Blind
> >>         Programming list.
> >>         > * Search on Google for tutorials on basic programming.
> >>         > * Take online AP Computer Science course to learn about
> >>         Java, object
> >>         > oriented programming, etc.
> >>         > The best way to start in programming would be learning about
> >>         JAWS scripts.
> >>         > This should allow a student to learn how JAWS actually
> >>         works, under what a
> >>         > variable, function and other things in programming mean and
> >>         to learn how
> >>         > to
> >>         > interpret script languages. Then I would recommend this
> >>         person to study C
> >>         > or
> >>         > Java. Or, if the student is interested, he can learn HTML to
> >>         code
> >>         > websites.
> >>         > Cheers,
> >>         > Joseph P.S. I'm also a high school student so I understand
> >>         Wilkins'
> >>         > situation.
> >>         >
> >>         > -----Original Message-----
> >>         > From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>         <mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>         > [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>         <mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of
> >> Chris
> >>         > Hofstader
> >>         > Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 7:38 AM
> >>         > To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>         <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>         > Subject: FW: BlindConfidential: Learning to Program for the
> >>         Blind
> >>         >
> >>         > Can people here help this person?
> >>         >
> >>         > -----Original Message-----
> >>         > From: Anya Kogan [mailto:akogan3@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>         <mailto:akogan3@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]
> >>         > Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 1:47 PM
> >>         > To: Chris.Hofstader@xxxxxxxxxxx
> >>         <mailto:Chris.Hofstader@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>         > Subject: BlindConfidential: Learning to Program for the Blind
> >>         >
> >>         > Hi Chris,
> >>         >
> >>         > I am a graduate student at the Georgia Institute of
> >>         Technology and also a
> >>         > new volunteer at the Center for the Visually Impaired in
> >>         Atlanta.  I
> >>         > assist
> >>         > in teaching the computer class there to blind and visually
> >>         impaired
> >>         > students.  I am sighted myself and very new to the
> >>         challenges of being
> >>         > visually impaired.  One of my students is a blind
> >>         high-school age boy
> >>         > named
> >>         > Wilkens.  Wilkens is very proficient in the computer basics
> >>         using Jaws.
> >>         > He
> >>         > very quickly and easily surfs the net, types on Microsoft
> >>         Word and uses
> >>         > Microsoft Excel.  He has now expressed interest in learning
> >>         to program.  I
> >>         > am very new to programming myself, but would be willing to
> >>         learn.
> >>         > However,
> >>         > how can I teach or at least assist a blind young man to
> >>         program?  I am not
> >>         > even sure where to begin.  Can you recommend any resources
> >>         or lend
> >>         > any advice on this topic?  Do you know of any online
> tutorials?
> >>         > Courses?  What language should he start with?  Is there a
> >>         first project
> >>         > that
> >>         > would benefit him?  Any help that you can lend me would be
> most
> >>         > appreciated.
> >>         > Wilkens has a lot of drive and I would hate to have that go
> >>         to waste.
> >>         >
> >>         > Best,
> >>         > Anya
> >>         >
> >>         >
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> >>
> >>
> >>     --
> >>     Arnold
> >>     http://www.blind411.org
> >>     http://www.blind411.org/ITCareers/
> >
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> >
>
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>


-- 
Arnold
http://www.blind411.org
http://www.blind411.org/ITCareers/

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