Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash

but it seems to me that if the programmers can't do anything but fight amongst 
themselves over something they have yet to do then I am looking in the wrong 
place
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Octavian Rasnita 
  To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 1:01 AM
  Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


  It depends what you really need. If you need web design, then yes, I am not 
the best person for doing such a thing. I don't have a team that can create the 
images, verify the layout, verify how well the colors match, and so on.

  Octavian

    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: John Greer 
    To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
    Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 11:13 PM
    Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


    So, I guess that means that you are not interested in designing my website. 
 In any case I would like to say what I have in mind.  I want to set up a 
searchable database for Jaws scripts, set files and map files.  Kind of a one 
stop shop for the scripts etc. that are in existance.  I am planning to 
purchase a 2 year plan from blue host that includes 300 gigs of web space, my 
own domain name and unlimited sub domains with 2500 email addresses and over 
3000 gigs of transfer bandwidth per month.  But my little test shows that you 
may not fit the bill.  Yep what I am looking for is an interface that is 
similar in layout to google.  One that is simple yet useful and accessible.  
This is not meant to be a dishonor to you but just a bit of advice for future 
refference.  Whether or not you are hired for a job also depends on one thing, 
which I feel is the most important thing of all, a positive attitude with a 
positive outlook.  Sometimes money can stare you right in the face and you 
don't even realize it without that positive outlook and an attitude of there is 
nothing that can't be done.  In any case all of this is still in the planning 
stage but may also be willing to pay for the design of the site.  I will keep 
people abreast of the progress of the business plan.
    And I hope everyone has a wonderful day.
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Octavian Rasnita 
      To: programmingblind@freelistsorg 
      Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 2:28 PM
      Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


      Well, I have no reasons to promote me and to create a program or web site 
for that. I have a full time job and I am very content of it.
      When I talk about any kind of jobs accessible for the blind, I am 
thinking to ajob that could be filled by many blind persons, not only by some 
very intelligent or skilled people, or by those that need to have a special 
talent or a big luck to find a job in those fields.

      For example programming is something that could be learned by many blind 
computer users, better or worse, but they could do what they know to do very 
well, in a pretty accessible way.

      If I'd recommend a possible job to a blind person, I won't tell him that 
I recommend to become a musician, just because it is something accessible, 
because that job requires talent, and not everyone has such a thing.
      Well, a good designer of any kind should also have talent, and it should 
not just know html.


      Octavian

        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: John Greer 
        To: programmingblind@freelistsorg 
        Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 7:59 PM
        Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


        But just being a web designer was not my only point.  I know that your 
knowledge extends beyond just html code.  What I meant was have you possibly 
considered creating a game, then creating a website to promote this game.  Or 
an application that may be in demand or may need to be made.  Have you maybe 
considered teaching?  Of course making the game or application is only half of 
the battle, because then you have to promote it.  Here is another example of a 
simple idea that has seemed to have taken off because of a simple marketing 
strategy change.  Text Aloud., when I first found them was just a simple 
website with the only program on it being text aloud.  I downloaded the program 
thinking it would help me out since the only screen reader I had was Narrator.  
When I found out that I could copy the text from a web page and it would read 
it to me automatically, I decided to email David.  What I told him is I didn't 
think he understood the potential of what he had.  I told him that I was a 
blind computer user and that it helped me to get around the net but it needed a 
little work.  It at the time did not work very well with screen readers.  He 
responded to me saying that he was actually starting beta testing on a new 
version and if I would be interested in helping make it more accessible.  I of 
course joined the beta team along with one other blind person.  We helped to 
explain to him what the program needed and some things he put in and some he 
didn't but I have to say the end result is alot more accessible than what he 
started with.  Well it wasn't long after 2.0 was released that he caught the 
attention of a company called ZD net.  He got his program promoted and reviewed 
on a show they had called call for help and he kind of took off from there.  
But all he really did was did a little change in his marketing strategy.  Soon 
there wasn't a search on google that I could do having to do with the blind 
where an ad for text aloud wouldn't come up.  Today he has a few more products 
up there but he also has a bit of software up there again for people that have 
lost their ability to speak.  When last I checked he sold the product for 99 
dollars US.  That is about 2000 dollars cheaper than similar products that 
perform the same function.  Now I sit and I think sometimes, did my email 
change his mind about what he had?  I believe it did.  Of course I have since 
been able to purchase a copy or two of jaws and find myself using it less than 
before.  But I do still keep it around for reading pdf files etc.  And I do 
still keep it around because I do get the product for free for the help I gave 
him.
          ----- Original Message ----- 
          From: Octavian Rasnita 
          To: programmingblind@freelistsorg 
          Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 11:04 AM
          Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


          Yes I agree with you, I also didn't like those complex web pages hard 
to use even when I was sighted.
          But this has nothing to do with the requirements for the web 
designers.

          Most of the web users I know know that the web browser has a scroll 
bar and that a web page can be longer than the screen, but they usually forget 
that, and if they cannot see everything on the first page, they tell that "that 
link doesn't exist", so the blind designer must make the pages to fit on one 
screen even if they need to show more links or pictures.

          The users I'm talking about use to like the menus created with 
Javascript "because they are easier to use", and they also like to push "nice 
buttons" instead of clicking on links, even though in fact those nice buttons 
are simple links with images that change themselves when they hover the mouse 
above them.
          But they don't know that, and they are confused if you tell them that 
those are links and not buttons.

          And the blind designer might be also confused, because the screen 
reader tell him that those are "links" and he cannot see what contain those 
images.

          We are talking about web design companies, about companies that 
create very many pages one after another, for other clients, which are usually 
smaller companies that don't have an iT department, and most of those clients 
don't have an idea about what a good site means.

          And I also know that some web design companies are good and they give 
good advices about how a good web page should be, but most of those clients 
don't agree and like flashy pages, because "they are more dynamic". Most of 
those clients don't know or care about the persons with disabilities or about 
their needs, and they ask for that kind of pages we don't like. And the 
interest of those web design companies is to serve their clients, not to follow 
W3C's recommendations or to care about the blind persons.

          In these conditions, a blind web designer might be asked for many 
times to create web pages that are inaccessible for the blind, and of course 
that a blind web designer won't be able to do a good job in those cases.

          A very important bank from my city changed its web site which was 
very accessible a few weeks ago, and now it uses only Flash.
          They didn't do it themselves, but a web design company. Now I can't 
read absolutely anything on their web site. Of course they don't care about the 
blind, and of course they won't improve their site just because a few blind 
persons will ask them.
          And there are other cases like that. I don't think a blind web 
designer could work for such a web design company.
          Those companies are usually pretty small because the market for web 
sites is not extraordinary big and there are more web design companies, and I 
doubt a blind web designer can find a job. Maybe only by chance...


          Octavian

            ----- Original Message ----- 
            From: John Greer 
            To: programmingblind@freelistsorg 
            Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 5:47 PM
            Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


            So, I have to ask, have you tried creating your own business 
concerning web design?  What I mean is you could start your own business with a 
few friends and market your services through web advertising.  Much of your 
advertising could also be for free if you search around.  For example you can 
submit your website to search engines, advertise through link and banner 
exchanges etc.  Web pages do not have to be complex or riddled with pictures to 
catch a sighted person's attention.  In fact many of the web pages out there 
are very over done.  pogo.com is the first example that comes to mind.  E bay 
is another.  Now while they have all of the flashy graphics etc. etc., to the 
sighted they are cluttered and disorganized.  It does not require that you use 
every web technology at your disposal to create a useful website.  Take a quick 
glance at the source for google.com.  The layout visually for google is a page 
with the google logo, a few links, an edit box and a couple of buttons.  And 
you know, those guys that own that site are worth hundreds of millions of 
dollars.  So what I say is instead of having your ideas and hoping for an 
employer to hire you, why not take those ideas and create a business of your 
own with it.  Sometimes all it really takes is a simple but unique idea.  Ask 
the guy that invented the pet rock how much he made from a rock glued to a 
board with a paper that said if it is wet it is raining.
              ----- Original Message ----- 
              From: Octavian Rasnita 
              To: programmingblind@freelistsorg 
              Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 7:21 AM
              Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


              Yes but we had this discussion before and I shown that the design 
of that site has not a commercial quality.
              Helpful for the blind and maybe other persons, but not 
appropriate for promoting a real business.

              Yes there are companies specialized for web design that have many 
employees and some of them could do just a part of the work while others could 
specialize in other fields, however there are very few such companies in some 
countries, so the possible oportunities of getting a job in one of them by a 
blind are very few.

              On the other hand, I've seen that those companies requires much 
more from a perspective employee, from knowing PHP, Javascript, knowing a 
foreign language like english or french, doing graphics in a certain program 
like Photoshop or Photopaint, considering Flash knowledge as an advantage, and 
other things.

              Well, in that case a blind web designer has almost 0 chances of 
getting a job, because not only that he cannot do all the things, but he cannot 
do the things considered an advantage either.

              I haven't seen any job announcement that asks for knowing the 
World Wide Web Consortium recommendations, and knowing HTML is something very 
normal.


              Octavian

                ----- Original Message ----- 
                From: John Greer 
                To: programmingblind@freelistsorg 
                Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 10:55 AM
                Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


                I think what is happening here is people here are lumping web 
designer together as a single profession.  When you are working for a company, 
there is usually a web design department.  But, that web design department 
consists of many other positions, graphics design, lay out design, concept 
design, data entry, coding etc. etc.  When working for a company in some cases 
more than just one person makes the web page happen.  The question is can a 
blind person do every aspect of web design?  The sad but true answer is no.  
But in some cases as I said there is more than one person involved in the 
design of a website.  Web designer is not the only profession involved in the 
creation of a web page.  The person that does the graphic designed can also be 
called as a general label a web designer if he or she does it for web content.  
The same goes for the person that just dreams up the concept of how it should 
look and work.  Yep even a concept designer can have the general lable of web 
designer if he or she does it for web content.  That's right web designer is 
just a general label people will use to explain what they do, but there is more 
than 1 profession involved in web design.  Now can a blind person also be a web 
designer, the answer could also be yes.  For example  Inthane is considered the 
web designer for the grab bag site.  If there are any graphics on Inthane's 
site the person who designed the graphic for the site is also considered one of 
the web designers for Inthane's site.
                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                  From: Octavian Rasnita 
                  To: programmingblind@freelistsorg 
                  Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 2:04 AM
                  Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


                  Yes, a blind person can be a part of a team of web designers, 
because he can do some things.

                  But he cannot be a web designer, because in that case he 
would need to make what an entire team of web design does. 
                  The designer should not just place the images or other web 
page elements, but he also need to create the javascript that replaces the 
images with other images when hovering with the mouse on them, or align the 
images in terms of pixels not by their margins, but sometimes by on the 
elements contained on some images, and when the layout doesn't look nice he 
should crop the images, or add some transparent margins, but if someone else 
should do this, than we can say that somebody else should do the biggest part 
of the job, while the blind web designer should only type some html attributes.

                  Octavian

                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                    From: Peter op 't Hof 
                    To: programmingblind@freelistsorg 
                    Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 8:33 AM
                    Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


                    Hi,

                    The only reason to have any luck in webdesign as a blind 
person is to use a content-managementsystem, so the images can be placed or by 
users/administrators/publishers or be placed by the blind person self with 
exact directions where to put the images whcich are design by an other person.
                    The same goes for forms or charts.

                    In my current job i do some of the functional design so 
there are many more ways to do a propper job in this field.

                    I do not want to state that a blind person can do it allone.
                    He/she has to be part of a team.

                    Greetings,

                    Peter op 't Hof.

                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                      From: Octavian Rasnita 
                      To: programmingblind@freelistsorg 
                      Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 10:01 PM
                      Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


                      If somebody cannot even crop a simple image, that person 
cannot call himself a web designer.
                      Even a kid can adjust some image or table sizes in an 
html document by setting some attributes in some HTML elements, but this 
doesn't mean that the person that can do this is a web designer.

                      But maybe we speak about different terms. :-)

                      See, in my native language, design means something 
related to visual things, like clothing design, graphic art. There are even 
design faculties that teach the students how to draw, how to do other visual 
arrangements that cannot be done by the blind. On the other hand, there are no 
faculties specialized only on "web design".

                      And something else... The word "design" is very closed to 
the word "desen" in my language, and desen means "drawing", so when I hear 
about design, I understand that the person that does the design need to be able 
to draw, to paint, to do graphics in general.

                      And another thing. If somebody should check and recheck 
and recheck the work of a web designer in order to see if what he done looks 
fine, because he cannot do it, then I don't think that person can name himself 
a web designer.

                      And by the way, I would like to see a good looking site 
made by a blind if there is such a thing. Of course, not good looking and 
friendly for the blind, but good looking for the sighted users perspective. Is 
there such a thing? If yes, then please show me, because until then I won't 
believe that a blind person can work as a web designer.

                      Thanks.

                      Octavian

                        ----- Original Message ----- 
                        From: inthaneelf 
                        To: programmingblind@freelistsorg 
                        Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 10:18 PM
                        Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


                        for that the company has a graphics designer, someone 
that specializes in such things, though with the programs I recommended to 
Marvin he can reliably size and place graphics on a web page, and I believe it 
was on the old programming list, the same place that we had this discussion 
last time.  

                        in some places and some smaller companies one person 
does the graphics and the web design, in other places and larger companies the 
graphics designer and the web designer are two different people and work in 
tandem on something like this. 

                        I don't know about slide shows, I don't remember if 
that was mentioned by him directly or not, but I do know that folks are 
building games in flash for the blind, go to the site I gave and look around, 
you will find them.  

                        and it may be a case as with power point, once one is 
sure one has the proper materials for a PP presentation, one can construct a 
slide show in it.   I have done so, though it was a long time back so remember 
working in it, and yes, I remember having to work double hard and taking the 
maximum amount of time that we were given for the project, but I did it, and 
the project got me a B, so I think I did alright.  

                        no, we can't yet work with graphics editing and/or 
enhancing directly yet teddy, but that's not always the case in the world, and 
stress the not always... as I mentioned above.  

                        regards, 
                        inthane
                        . For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful 
Programs, and Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, 
visit me at:
                        http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
                        . to be able to view a simple programming project in 
several programming languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
                        http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com

                          ----- Original Message ----- 
                          From: Octavian Rasnita 
                          To: programmingblind@freelistsorg 
                          Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 1:33 AM
                          Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


                          Where did he spoke?

                          I am curious how can he create/crop/modify the 
images, or how can he create the graphics on a Flash annimation and how he can 
verify if what he done is ok.

                          Where can I read about that?

                          Octavian

                            ----- Original Message ----- 
                            From: inthaneelf 
                            To: programmingblind@freelistsorg 
                            Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 11:03 AM
                            Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


                            here we go with this again, *sigh* we have had a 
professional web designer out here, who was and is blind...  invited by James 
homme, and he spoke long and straight forward about this... 

                            later, 
                            inthane
                            . For Blind Programming assistance, Information, 
Useful Programs, and Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and 
Applications, visit me at:
                            http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
                            . to be able to view a simple programming project 
in several programming languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
                            http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com

                              ----- Original Message ----- 
                              From: Octavian Rasnita 
                              To: programmingblind@freelistsorg 
                              Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 11:25 PM
                              Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


                              Web site development could mean very many things, 
so they can tell you to do many things that are absolutely inaccessible for a 
blind.

                              It could mean server side programming, client 
side programming, database development, server and network administration, and 
these are accessible, but it could also mean web design which is not 
accessible, or so low accessible that it would not help any blind person to 
become a professional web designer.

                              Discrimination means very many things also. 
Nothing could exist without beeing discriminatory for some persons.
                              For the blind perspective, something absolutely 
not discriminatory would be something which has the same accessibility level 
for everyone, no matter if they can see or not.

                              In your case, if the other sighted persons would 
be able to do what that program requires, without using the display, it 
wouldn't be discriminatory, but it couldn't be that way, because all the 
sighted persons think that "sighted is normal", while "blind is not normal".

                              In this case, you could ask them to allow you not 
to follow the classes that requires using the mouse, because you cannot use a 
mouse.
                              If the professors or other students would be able 
to do what you need to do without a mouse but only with the keyboard, than I 
think you would be able to do it also.

                              Forcing a blind computer programmer to use a 
mouse could mean discrimination.

                              Octavian

                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                From: marvin hunkin 
                                To: programmingblind@freelistsorg 
                                Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 7:24 AM
                                Subject: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


                                Hi.
                                well, next year looking at doing the diploma in 
information technology, website development.
                                a couple of challenges i have, is that a couple 
of units, i probably will not be able to do, as one is to use advanced and 
basic features of adobe photoshop, to crop, manipulate images, and create 2d 
and 3d animation, using adobe flash, as part of my major project.
                                Now, the National Traning Information System, 
which is governed by a national curriculum, for tafe across Australia, and 
comes from the department of education, canberra.
                                now, as i will have trouble being deemed 
competent, because jaws, will not work with this software, as a core part of 
the course, and i have spoken to my disability office and the main lecturer, 
who organises the learning curriculum and talks to other lecturers.
                                they will be using adobe photo shop, adobe 
flash.
                                i know, i could probably use the flash 
development kit, but the major challenge is the graphics side of things.  So 
they are willing to bend, in their curriculum, as they said i would have an 
advantage, if i had sighted help to crop, edit and manipulate the objects.
                                so, got any tips, tricks, or any work arounds 
for that, or is this a dissability discrimination act complaint, that might 
change their mind and bend to accomodate, not just me, but another vision 
impaired friend of mine is doing the same diploma with new south wales tafe, as 
this is a national curriculum, and has been rolled out as the new training 
package for the past 12 months.
                                if you can let me know, how to get round this 
problem, as the other subjects, i should be able to use php, editor, my sql 
database, visual studio.net 2005, for the asp stuff, etc.
                                if anyone has had the same problem or 
situation, let me know asap.
                                having a meeting soon to review what i have 
done this year for certificate iv in website development.
                                cheers marvin.


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