Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash
- From: "inthaneelf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 11:55:38 -0700
you know what, this was settled for me the last time it was gone through, with
the message by the blind gentlemen who is a professional web designer.
I have enough to do without digging through the archives, so fine, you believe
what you believe, and I'll just go along knowing that there is a blind web
designer out there, that he is a professional in his field, and to the bloody
blazing pits of ... with this conversation, you have been at the basis of this
negative run both times and I've had enough
I'm out of here
inthane
. For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and Links to
Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit me at:
http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
. to be able to view a simple programming project in several programming
languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Octavian Rasnita
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 5:24 AM
Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash
I haven't seen anyone on the list pointing us to some web pages created by a
blind person.
And when I mean by a blind person I mean a good web page created by a blind
person and not by a team where the graphics are created by someone else, the
design is verified by someone else, the Javascript menus or image-switching
code is done by someone else, and so on.
Octavian
----- Original Message -----
From: inthaneelf
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash
the gentleman James homme asked to speak on the list was a! professional!
web! designer!, this is what he does for a living, his work is not less than a
sighted web designer or he wouldn't be a professional, since he would not be
able to get the job teddy, sigh
as I said before this was already discussed and finalized by the gentlemen
Jim had come out here, or rather the old list, and speak to us!
inthane
. For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and Links
to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit me at:
http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
. to be able to view a simple programming project in several programming
languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Octavian Rasnita
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 10:39 PM
Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash
Well, if somebody can create an html page, he can call himself a web
designer, because he arranged the text and graphics on the web page, set
colors, fonts, and so on, but the quality of a web page design that's made by a
blind person is much lower than the one made by a sighted.
And if the quality of the design made by a blind is low, that person
cannot compete with the sighted designers. This is a reason I say that the
blind web designer is not a web designer.
Web page design doesn't mean just arranging the text and images on the
web page in a very basic way, but it means arranging them visually aligning the
images with the text, some elements from images with other elements from the
web page, it also means creating Javascript menus, or using javascript to make
the site easier to be used by a sighted.
Creating .bat files could also imply using some programming, using if
statements for example, but I don't think a person that knows to create some
more complicated .bat files can call himself a "programmer".
It is exactly the same in case of the blind web designers.
Octavian
----- Original Message -----
From: inthaneelf
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 12:39 AM
Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash
design, the English form, or more likely the American form of it, means
to create, not specifically to draw, and I said that some work with a graphic
is possible with the html editor I recommended, sigh, if I need to put every
single detail in a message I'll be typing for the next week on one message, and
I don't have time for that...
here if you can put the images on in the links, generate the code for
the web page, and place images on a web page, properly, and other such items of
coding... too numerous to be put here, and have it turn out decently looking
to the sighted, as well as be web accessibility compliant, you are qualified
for the title of Website designer. if you specialize in graphical creation,
generation or modification of images your a graphics designer (these are fast
and very short descriptions...)
as I said "designer" is not a graphical term here specifically, though
a large number of things that are "designed" do have visual aspects, but not
all.
I am a game designer, and I can't draw, and have never been able to
draw worth a damn. I can think of what I want an item in a game to look like,
I can type out or in the past write out what I want it to look like, or
describe it to someone, I could, and still can, even build a model of something
I want in a graphic, paint it, have someone check for mistakes then photograph
it and turn it into an image for use, but draw, never could, and probably never
will even if I should be able to get my sight back.
regards,
inthane
. For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and
Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit me at:
http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
. to be able to view a simple programming project in several
programming languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Octavian Rasnita
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 1:01 PM
Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash
If somebody cannot even crop a simple image, that person cannot call
himself a web designer.
Even a kid can adjust some image or table sizes in an html document
by setting some attributes in some HTML elements, but this doesn't mean that
the person that can do this is a web designer.
But maybe we speak about different terms. :-)
See, in my native language, design means something related to visual
things, like clothing design, graphic art. There are even design faculties that
teach the students how to draw, how to do other visual arrangements that cannot
be done by the blind. On the other hand, there are no faculties specialized
only on "web design".
And something else... The word "design" is very closed to the word
"desen" in my language, and desen means "drawing", so when I hear about design,
I understand that the person that does the design need to be able to draw, to
paint, to do graphics in general.
And another thing. If somebody should check and recheck and recheck
the work of a web designer in order to see if what he done looks fine, because
he cannot do it, then I don't think that person can name himself a web designer.
And by the way, I would like to see a good looking site made by a
blind if there is such a thing. Of course, not good looking and friendly for
the blind, but good looking for the sighted users perspective. Is there such a
thing? If yes, then please show me, because until then I won't believe that a
blind person can work as a web designer.
Thanks.
Octavian
----- Original Message -----
From: inthaneelf
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 10:18 PM
Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash
for that the company has a graphics designer, someone that
specializes in such things, though with the programs I recommended to Marvin he
can reliably size and place graphics on a web page, and I believe it was on the
old programming list, the same place that we had this discussion last time.
in some places and some smaller companies one person does the
graphics and the web design, in other places and larger companies the graphics
designer and the web designer are two different people and work in tandem on
something like this.
I don't know about slide shows, I don't remember if that was
mentioned by him directly or not, but I do know that folks are building games
in flash for the blind, go to the site I gave and look around, you will find
them.
and it may be a case as with power point, once one is sure one has
the proper materials for a PP presentation, one can construct a slide show in
it. I have done so, though it was a long time back so remember working in it,
and yes, I remember having to work double hard and taking the maximum amount of
time that we were given for the project, but I did it, and the project got me a
B, so I think I did alright.
no, we can't yet work with graphics editing and/or enhancing
directly yet teddy, but that's not always the case in the world, and stress the
not always... as I mentioned above.
regards,
inthane
. For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs,
and Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit me
at:
http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
. to be able to view a simple programming project in several
programming languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Octavian Rasnita
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 1:33 AM
Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash
Where did he spoke?
I am curious how can he create/crop/modify the images, or how can
he create the graphics on a Flash annimation and how he can verify if what he
done is ok.
Where can I read about that?
Octavian
----- Original Message -----
From: inthaneelf
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 11:03 AM
Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash
here we go with this again, *sigh* we have had a professional
web designer out here, who was and is blind... invited by James homme, and he
spoke long and straight forward about this...
later,
inthane
. For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful
Programs, and Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications,
visit me at:
http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
. to be able to view a simple programming project in several
programming languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Octavian Rasnita
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 11:25 PM
Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash
Web site development could mean very many things, so they can
tell you to do many things that are absolutely inaccessible for a blind.
It could mean server side programming, client side
programming, database development, server and network administration, and these
are accessible, but it could also mean web design which is not accessible, or
so low accessible that it would not help any blind person to become a
professional web designer.
Discrimination means very many things also. Nothing could
exist without beeing discriminatory for some persons.
For the blind perspective, something absolutely not
discriminatory would be something which has the same accessibility level for
everyone, no matter if they can see or not.
In your case, if the other sighted persons would be able to
do what that program requires, without using the display, it wouldn't be
discriminatory, but it couldn't be that way, because all the sighted persons
think that "sighted is normal", while "blind is not normal".
In this case, you could ask them to allow you not to follow
the classes that requires using the mouse, because you cannot use a mouse.
If the professors or other students would be able to do what
you need to do without a mouse but only with the keyboard, than I think you
would be able to do it also.
Forcing a blind computer programmer to use a mouse could mean
discrimination.
Octavian
----- Original Message -----
From: marvin hunkin
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 7:24 AM
Subject: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash
Hi.
well, next year looking at doing the diploma in information
technology, website development.
a couple of challenges i have, is that a couple of units, i
probably will not be able to do, as one is to use advanced and basic features
of adobe photoshop, to crop, manipulate images, and create 2d and 3d animation,
using adobe flash, as part of my major project.
Now, the National Traning Information System, which is
governed by a national curriculum, for tafe across Australia, and comes from
the department of education, canberra.
now, as i will have trouble being deemed competent, because
jaws, will not work with this software, as a core part of the course, and i
have spoken to my disability office and the main lecturer, who organises the
learning curriculum and talks to other lecturers.
they will be using adobe photo shop, adobe flash.
i know, i could probably use the flash development kit, but
the major challenge is the graphics side of things. So they are willing to
bend, in their curriculum, as they said i would have an advantage, if i had
sighted help to crop, edit and manipulate the objects.
so, got any tips, tricks, or any work arounds for that, or
is this a dissability discrimination act complaint, that might change their
mind and bend to accomodate, not just me, but another vision impaired friend of
mine is doing the same diploma with new south wales tafe, as this is a national
curriculum, and has been rolled out as the new training package for the past 12
months.
if you can let me know, how to get round this problem, as
the other subjects, i should be able to use php, editor, my sql database,
visual studio.net 2005, for the asp stuff, etc.
if anyone has had the same problem or situation, let me
know asap.
having a meeting soon to review what i have done this year
for certificate iv in website development.
cheers marvin.
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