Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash

Octavian,
I've been following your contribution to this thread, and I can't help but nod my head in agreement of the fact that you are 100% correct. An employer doesn't hire a person just because the employee can do the most basic of their job description, an employer hires a specific person above all others because they can do way above and beyond what is asked of him or her.
I am also impressed with John Greer's posts as he is consistent in his contribution of ideas and his strong belief that there are many ways around what may seem like dead ends for blind people.
On the other hand, many can argue that a person in a wheelchair can climb stairs if he had the correct structural modifications, but why would anyone spend so much money modifying the structure of their business for such a tiny facet of the potential customer population? 

Matthew
---- Original Message ----- From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx> 
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 9:04 AM
Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash
Yes I agree with you, I also didn't like those complex web pages hard to use even when I was sighted. 
But this has nothing to do with the requirements for the web designers.
Most of the web users I know know that the web browser has a scroll bar and that a web page can be longer than the screen, but they usually forget that, and if they cannot see everything on the first page, they tell that "that link doesn't exist", so the blind designer must make the pages to fit on one screen even if they need to show more links or pictures.
The users I'm talking about use to like the menus created with Javascript "because they are easier to use", and they also like to push "nice buttons" instead of clicking on links, even though in fact those nice buttons are simple links with images that change themselves when they hover the mouse above them. But they don't know that, and they are confused if you tell them that those are links and not buttons.
And the blind designer might be also confused, because the screen reader tell him that those are "links" and he cannot see what contain those images.
We are talking about web design companies, about companies that create very many pages one after another, for other clients, which are usually smaller companies that don't have an iT department, and most of those clients don't have an idea about what a good site means.
And I also know that some web design companies are good and they give good advices about how a good web page should be, but most of those clients don't agree and like flashy pages, because "they are more dynamic". Most of those clients don't know or care about the persons with disabilities or about their needs, and they ask for that kind of pages we don't like. And the interest of those web design companies is to serve their clients, not to follow W3C's recommendations or to care about the blind persons.
In these conditions, a blind web designer might be asked for many times to create web pages that are inaccessible for the blind, and of course that a blind web designer won't be able to do a good job in those cases.
A very important bank from my city changed its web site which was very accessible a few weeks ago, and now it uses only Flash. They didn't do it themselves, but a web design company. Now I can't read absolutely anything on their web site. Of course they don't care about the blind, and of course they won't improve their site just because a few blind persons will ask them. And there are other cases like that. I don't think a blind web designer could work for such a web design company. Those companies are usually pretty small because the market for web sites is not extraordinary big and there are more web design companies, and I doubt a blind web designer can find a job. Maybe only by chance... 


Octavian
----- Original Message ----- From: John Greer 
 To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
 Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 5:47 PM
 Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash
So, I have to ask, have you tried creating your own business concerning web design? What I mean is you could start your own business with a few friends and market your services through web advertising. Much of your advertising could also be for free if you search around. For example you can submit your website to search engines, advertise through link and banner exchanges etc. Web pages do not have to be complex or riddled with pictures to catch a sighted person's attention. In fact many of the web pages out there are very over done. pogo.com is the first example that comes to mind. E bay is another. Now while they have all of the flashy graphics etc. etc., to the sighted they are cluttered and disorganized. It does not require that you use every web technology at your disposal to create a useful website. Take a quick glance at the source for google.com. The layout visually for google is a page with the google logo, a few links, an edit box and a couple of buttons. And you know, those guys that own that site are worth hundreds of millions of dollars. So what I say is instead of having your ideas and hoping for an employer to hire you, why not take those ideas and create a business of your own with it. Sometimes all it really takes is a simple but unique idea. Ask the guy that invented the pet rock how much he made from a rock glued to a board with a paper that said if it is wet it is raining. ----- Original Message ----- From: Octavian Rasnita 
   To: programmingblind@freelistsorg
   Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 7:21 AM
   Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash
Yes but we had this discussion before and I shown that the design of that site has not a commercial quality. Helpful for the blind and maybe other persons, but not appropriate for promoting a real business.
Yes there are companies specialized for web design that have many employees and some of them could do just a part of the work while others could specialize in other fields, however there are very few such companies in some countries, so the possible oportunities of getting a job in one of them by a blind are very few.
On the other hand, I've seen that those companies requires much more from a perspective employee, from knowing PHP, Javascript, knowing a foreign language like english or french, doing graphics in a certain program like Photoshop or Photopaint, considering Flash knowledge as an advantage, and other things.
Well, in that case a blind web designer has almost 0 chances of getting a job, because not only that he cannot do all the things, but he cannot do the things considered an advantage either.
I haven't seen any job announcement that asks for knowing the World Wide Web Consortium recommendations, and knowing HTML is something very normal. 


   Octavian
----- Original Message ----- From: John Greer 
     To: programmingblind@freelistsorg
     Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 10:55 AM
     Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash
I think what is happening here is people here are lumping web designer together as a single profession. When you are working for a company, there is usually a web design department. But, that web design department consists of many other positions, graphics design, lay out design, concept design, data entry, coding etc. etc. When working for a company in some cases more than just one person makes the web page happen. The question is can a blind person do every aspect of web design? The sad but true answer is no. But in some cases as I said there is more than one person involved in the design of a website. Web designer is not the only profession involved in the creation of a web page. The person that does the graphic designed can also be called as a general label a web designer if he or she does it for web content. The same goes for the person that just dreams up the concept of how it should look and work. Yep even a concept designer can have the general lable of web designer if he or she does it for web content. That's right web designer is just a general label people will use to explain what they do, but there is more than 1 profession involved in web design. Now can a blind person also be a web designer, the answer could also be yes. For example Inthane is considered the web designer for the grab bag site. If there are any graphics on Inthane's site the person who designed the graphic for the site is also considered one of the web designers for Inthane's site. ----- Original Message ----- From: Octavian Rasnita 
       To: programmingblind@freelistsorg
       Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 2:04 AM
       Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash
Yes, a blind person can be a part of a team of web designers, because he can do some things.
But he cannot be a web designer, because in that case he would need to make what an entire team of web design does. The designer should not just place the images or other web page elements, but he also need to create the javascript that replaces the images with other images when hovering with the mouse on them, or align the images in terms of pixels not by their margins, but sometimes by on the elements contained on some images, and when the layout doesn't look nice he should crop the images, or add some transparent margins, but if someone else should do this, than we can say that somebody else should do the biggest part of the job, while the blind web designer should only type some html attributes. 

       Octavian
----- Original Message ----- From: Peter op 't Hof 
         To: programmingblind@freelistsorg
         Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 8:33 AM
         Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


         Hi,
The only reason to have any luck in webdesign as a blind person is to use a content-managementsystem, so the images can be placed or by users/administrators/publishers or be placed by the blind person self with exact directions where to put the images whcich are design by an other person. 
         The same goes for forms or charts.
In my current job i do some of the functional design so there are many more ways to do a propper job in this field. 

         I do not want to state that a blind person can do it allone.
         He/she has to be part of a team.

         Greetings,

         Peter op 't Hof.
----- Original Message ----- From: Octavian Rasnita 
           To: programmingblind@freelistsorg
           Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 10:01 PM
           Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash
If somebody cannot even crop a simple image, that person cannot call himself a web designer. Even a kid can adjust some image or table sizes in an html document by setting some attributes in some HTML elements, but this doesn't mean that the person that can do this is a web designer. 

           But maybe we speak about different terms. :-)
See, in my native language, design means something related to visual things, like clothing design, graphic art. There are even design faculties that teach the students how to draw, how to do other visual arrangements that cannot be done by the blind. On the other hand, there are no faculties specialized only on "web design".
And something else... The word "design" is very closed to the word "desen" in my language, and desen means "drawing", so when I hear about design, I understand that the person that does the design need to be able to draw, to paint, to do graphics in general.
And another thing. If somebody should check and recheck and recheck the work of a web designer in order to see if what he done looks fine, because he cannot do it, then I don't think that person can name himself a web designer.
And by the way, I would like to see a good looking site made by a blind if there is such a thing. Of course, not good looking and friendly for the blind, but good looking for the sighted users perspective. Is there such a thing? If yes, then please show me, because until then I won't believe that a blind person can work as a web designer. 

           Thanks.

           Octavian
----- Original Message ----- From: inthaneelf 
             To: programmingblind@freelistsorg
             Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 10:18 PM
             Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash
for that the company has a graphics designer, someone that specializes in such things, though with the programs I recommended to Marvin he can reliably size and place graphics on a web page, and I believe it was on the old programming list, the same place that we had this discussion last time.
in some places and some smaller companies one person does the graphics and the web design, in other places and larger companies the graphics designer and the web designer are two different people and work in tandem on something like this.
I don't know about slide shows, I don't remember if that was mentioned by him directly or not, but I do know that folks are building games in flash for the blind, go to the site I gave and look around, you will find them.
and it may be a case as with power point, once one is sure one has the proper materials for a PP presentation, one can construct a slide show in it. I have done so, though it was a long time back so remember working in it, and yes, I remember having to work double hard and taking the maximum amount of time that we were given for the project, but I did it, and the project got me a B, so I think I did alright.
no, we can't yet work with graphics editing and/or enhancing directly yet teddy, but that's not always the case in the world, and stress the not always... as I mentioned above. 

             regards,
             inthane
. For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit me at: 
             http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
. to be able to view a simple programming project in several programming languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at: 
             http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
----- Original Message ----- From: Octavian Rasnita 
               To: programmingblind@freelistsorg
               Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 1:33 AM
               Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


               Where did he spoke?
I am curious how can he create/crop/modify the images, or how can he create the graphics on a Flash annimation and how he can verify if what he done is ok. 

               Where can I read about that?

               Octavian
----- Original Message ----- From: inthaneelf 
                 To: programmingblind@freelistsorg
                 Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 11:03 AM
                 Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash
here we go with this again, *sigh* we have had a professional web designer out here, who was and is blind... invited by James homme, and he spoke long and straight forward about this... 

                 later,
                 inthane
. For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit me at: 
                 http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
. to be able to view a simple programming project in several programming languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at: 
                 http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
----- Original Message ----- From: Octavian Rasnita 
                   To: programmingblind@freelistsorg
                   Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 11:25 PM
                   Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash
Web site development could mean very many things, so they can tell you to do many things that are absolutely inaccessible for a blind.
It could mean server side programming, client side programming, database development, server and network administration, and these are accessible, but it could also mean web design which is not accessible, or so low accessible that it would not help any blind person to become a professional web designer.
Discrimination means very many things also. Nothing could exist without beeing discriminatory for some persons. For the blind perspective, something absolutely not discriminatory would be something which has the same accessibility level for everyone, no matter if they can see or not.
In your case, if the other sighted persons would be able to do what that program requires, without using the display, it wouldn't be discriminatory, but it couldn't be that way, because all the sighted persons think that "sighted is normal", while "blind is not normal".
In this case, you could ask them to allow you not to follow the classes that requires using the mouse, because you cannot use a mouse. If the professors or other students would be able to do what you need to do without a mouse but only with the keyboard, than I think you would be able to do it also.
Forcing a blind computer programmer to use a mouse could mean discrimination. 

                   Octavian
----- Original Message ----- From: marvin hunkin 
                     To: programmingblind@freelistsorg
                     Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 7:24 AM
                     Subject: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


                     Hi.
well, next year looking at doing the diploma in information technology, website development. a couple of challenges i have, is that a couple of units, i probably will not be able to do, as one is to use advanced and basic features of adobe photoshop, to crop, manipulate images, and create 2d and 3d animation, using adobe flash, as part of my major project. Now, the National Traning Information System, which is governed by a national curriculum, for tafe across Australia, and comes from the department of education, canberra. now, as i will have trouble being deemed competent, because jaws, will not work with this software, as a core part of the course, and i have spoken to my disability office and the main lecturer, who organises the learning curriculum and talks to other lecturers. 
                     they will be using adobe photo shop, adobe flash.
i know, i could probably use the flash development kit, but the major challenge is the graphics side of things. So they are willing to bend, in their curriculum, as they said i would have an advantage, if i had sighted help to crop, edit and manipulate the objects. so, got any tips, tricks, or any work arounds for that, or is this a dissability discrimination act complaint, that might change their mind and bend to accomodate, not just me, but another vision impaired friend of mine is doing the same diploma with new south wales tafe, as this is a national curriculum, and has been rolled out as the new training package for the past 12 months. if you can let me know, how to get round this problem, as the other subjects, i should be able to use php, editor, my sql database, visual studio.net 2005, for the asp stuff, etc. if anyone has had the same problem or situation, let me know asap. having a meeting soon to review what i have done this year for certificate iv in website development. 
                     cheers marvin.


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