Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash

Yes but we had this discussion before and I shown that the design of that site 
has not a commercial quality.
Helpful for the blind and maybe other persons, but not appropriate for 
promoting a real business.

Yes there are companies specialized for web design that have many employees and 
some of them could do just a part of the work while others could specialize in 
other fields, however there are very few such companies in some countries, so 
the possible oportunities of getting a job in one of them by a blind are very 
few.

On the other hand, I've seen that those companies requires much more from a 
perspective employee, from knowing PHP, Javascript, knowing a foreign language 
like english or french, doing graphics in a certain program like Photoshop or 
Photopaint, considering Flash knowledge as an advantage, and other things.

Well, in that case a blind web designer has almost 0 chances of getting a job, 
because not only that he cannot do all the things, but he cannot do the things 
considered an advantage either.

I haven't seen any job announcement that asks for knowing the World Wide Web 
Consortium recommendations, and knowing HTML is something very normal.


Octavian

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: John Greer 
  To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 10:55 AM
  Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


  I think what is happening here is people here are lumping web designer 
together as a single profession.  When you are working for a company, there is 
usually a web design department.  But, that web design department consists of 
many other positions, graphics design, lay out design, concept design, data 
entry, coding etc. etc.  When working for a company in some cases more than 
just one person makes the web page happen.  The question is can a blind person 
do every aspect of web design?  The sad but true answer is no.  But in some 
cases as I said there is more than one person involved in the design of a 
website.  Web designer is not the only profession involved in the creation of a 
web page.  The person that does the graphic designed can also be called as a 
general label a web designer if he or she does it for web content.  The same 
goes for the person that just dreams up the concept of how it should look and 
work.  Yep even a concept designer can have the general lable of web designer 
if he or she does it for web content.  That's right web designer is just a 
general label people will use to explain what they do, but there is more than 1 
profession involved in web design.  Now can a blind person also be a web 
designer, the answer could also be yes.  For example  Inthane is considered the 
web designer for the grab bag site.  If there are any graphics on Inthane's 
site the person who designed the graphic for the site is also considered one of 
the web designers for Inthane's site.
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Octavian Rasnita 
    To: programmingblind@freelistsorg 
    Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 2:04 AM
    Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


    Yes, a blind person can be a part of a team of web designers, because he 
can do some things.

    But he cannot be a web designer, because in that case he would need to make 
what an entire team of web design does. 
    The designer should not just place the images or other web page elements, 
but he also need to create the javascript that replaces the images with other 
images when hovering with the mouse on them, or align the images in terms of 
pixels not by their margins, but sometimes by on the elements contained on some 
images, and when the layout doesn't look nice he should crop the images, or add 
some transparent margins, but if someone else should do this, than we can say 
that somebody else should do the biggest part of the job, while the blind web 
designer should only type some html attributes.

    Octavian

      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Peter op 't Hof 
      To: programmingblind@freelistsorg 
      Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 8:33 AM
      Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


      Hi,

      The only reason to have any luck in webdesign as a blind person is to use 
a content-managementsystem, so the images can be placed or by 
users/administrators/publishers or be placed by the blind person self with 
exact directions where to put the images whcich are design by an other person.
      The same goes for forms or charts.

      In my current job i do some of the functional design so there are many 
more ways to do a propper job in this field.

      I do not want to state that a blind person can do it allone.
      He/she has to be part of a team.

      Greetings,

      Peter op 't Hof.

        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Octavian Rasnita 
        To: programmingblind@freelistsorg 
        Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 10:01 PM
        Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


        If somebody cannot even crop a simple image, that person cannot call 
himself a web designer.
        Even a kid can adjust some image or table sizes in an html document by 
setting some attributes in some HTML elements, but this doesn't mean that the 
person that can do this is a web designer.

        But maybe we speak about different terms. :-)

        See, in my native language, design means something related to visual 
things, like clothing design, graphic art. There are even design faculties that 
teach the students how to draw, how to do other visual arrangements that cannot 
be done by the blind. On the other hand, there are no faculties specialized 
only on "web design".

        And something else... The word "design" is very closed to the word 
"desen" in my language, and desen means "drawing", so when I hear about design, 
I understand that the person that does the design need to be able to draw, to 
paint, to do graphics in general.

        And another thing. If somebody should check and recheck and recheck the 
work of a web designer in order to see if what he done looks fine, because he 
cannot do it, then I don't think that person can name himself a web designer.

        And by the way, I would like to see a good looking site made by a blind 
if there is such a thing. Of course, not good looking and friendly for the 
blind, but good looking for the sighted users perspective. Is there such a 
thing? If yes, then please show me, because until then I won't believe that a 
blind person can work as a web designer.

        Thanks.

        Octavian

          ----- Original Message ----- 
          From: inthaneelf 
          To: programmingblind@freelistsorg 
          Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 10:18 PM
          Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


          for that the company has a graphics designer, someone that 
specializes in such things, though with the programs I recommended to Marvin he 
can reliably size and place graphics on a web page, and I believe it was on the 
old programming list, the same place that we had this discussion last time.  

          in some places and some smaller companies one person does the 
graphics and the web design, in other places and larger companies the graphics 
designer and the web designer are two different people and work in tandem on 
something like this. 

          I don't know about slide shows, I don't remember if that was 
mentioned by him directly or not, but I do know that folks are building games 
in flash for the blind, go to the site I gave and look around, you will find 
them.  

          and it may be a case as with power point, once one is sure one has 
the proper materials for a PP presentation, one can construct a slide show in 
it.   I have done so, though it was a long time back so remember working in it, 
and yes, I remember having to work double hard and taking the maximum amount of 
time that we were given for the project, but I did it, and the project got me a 
B, so I think I did alright.  

          no, we can't yet work with graphics editing and/or enhancing directly 
yet teddy, but that's not always the case in the world, and stress the not 
always... as I mentioned above.  

          regards, 
          inthane
          . For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and 
Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit me at:
          http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
          . to be able to view a simple programming project in several 
programming languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
          http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com

            ----- Original Message ----- 
            From: Octavian Rasnita 
            To: programmingblind@freelistsorg 
            Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 1:33 AM
            Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


            Where did he spoke?

            I am curious how can he create/crop/modify the images, or how can 
he create the graphics on a Flash annimation and how he can verify if what he 
done is ok.

            Where can I read about that?

            Octavian

              ----- Original Message ----- 
              From: inthaneelf 
              To: programmingblind@freelistsorg 
              Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 11:03 AM
              Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


              here we go with this again, *sigh* we have had a professional web 
designer out here, who was and is blind...  invited by James homme, and he 
spoke long and straight forward about this... 

              later, 
              inthane
              . For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, 
and Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit me 
at:
              http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
              . to be able to view a simple programming project in several 
programming languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
              http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com

                ----- Original Message ----- 
                From: Octavian Rasnita 
                To: programmingblind@freelistsorg 
                Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 11:25 PM
                Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


                Web site development could mean very many things, so they can 
tell you to do many things that are absolutely inaccessible for a blind.

                It could mean server side programming, client side programming, 
database development, server and network administration, and these are 
accessible, but it could also mean web design which is not accessible, or so 
low accessible that it would not help any blind person to become a professional 
web designer.

                Discrimination means very many things also. Nothing could exist 
without beeing discriminatory for some persons.
                For the blind perspective, something absolutely not 
discriminatory would be something which has the same accessibility level for 
everyone, no matter if they can see or not.

                In your case, if the other sighted persons would be able to do 
what that program requires, without using the display, it wouldn't be 
discriminatory, but it couldn't be that way, because all the sighted persons 
think that "sighted is normal", while "blind is not normal".

                In this case, you could ask them to allow you not to follow the 
classes that requires using the mouse, because you cannot use a mouse.
                If the professors or other students would be able to do what 
you need to do without a mouse but only with the keyboard, than I think you 
would be able to do it also.

                Forcing a blind computer programmer to use a mouse could mean 
discrimination.

                Octavian

                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                  From: marvin hunkin 
                  To: programmingblind@freelistsorg 
                  Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 7:24 AM
                  Subject: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


                  Hi.
                  well, next year looking at doing the diploma in information 
technology, website development.
                  a couple of challenges i have, is that a couple of units, i 
probably will not be able to do, as one is to use advanced and basic features 
of adobe photoshop, to crop, manipulate images, and create 2d and 3d animation, 
using adobe flash, as part of my major project.
                  Now, the National Traning Information System, which is 
governed by a national curriculum, for tafe across Australia, and comes from 
the department of education, canberra.
                  now, as i will have trouble being deemed competent, because 
jaws, will not work with this software, as a core part of the course, and i 
have spoken to my disability office and the main lecturer, who organises the 
learning curriculum and talks to other lecturers.
                  they will be using adobe photo shop, adobe flash.
                  i know, i could probably use the flash development kit, but 
the major challenge is the graphics side of things.  So they are willing to 
bend, in their curriculum, as they said i would have an advantage, if i had 
sighted help to crop, edit and manipulate the objects.
                  so, got any tips, tricks, or any work arounds for that, or is 
this a dissability discrimination act complaint, that might change their mind 
and bend to accomodate, not just me, but another vision impaired friend of mine 
is doing the same diploma with new south wales tafe, as this is a national 
curriculum, and has been rolled out as the new training package for the past 12 
months.
                  if you can let me know, how to get round this problem, as the 
other subjects, i should be able to use php, editor, my sql database, visual 
studio.net 2005, for the asp stuff, etc.
                  if anyone has had the same problem or situation, let me know 
asap.
                  having a meeting soon to review what i have done this year 
for certificate iv in website development.
                  cheers marvin.


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