Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash

the gentleman James homme asked to speak on the list was a! professional! web! 
designer!, this is what he does for a living, his work is not less than a 
sighted web designer or he wouldn't be a professional, since he would not be 
able to get the job teddy, sigh

as I said before this was already discussed and finalized by the gentlemen Jim 
had come out here, or rather the old list, and speak to us!

inthane
. For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and Links to 
Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit me at:
http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
. to be able to view a simple programming project in several programming 
languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Octavian Rasnita 
  To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 10:39 PM
  Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


  Well, if somebody can create an html page, he can call himself a web 
designer, because he arranged the text and graphics on the web page, set 
colors, fonts, and so on, but the quality of a web page design that's made by a 
blind person is much lower than the one made by a sighted.

  And if the quality of the design made by a blind is low, that person cannot 
compete with the sighted designers. This is a reason I say that the blind web 
designer is not a web designer.

  Web page design doesn't mean just arranging the text and images on the web 
page in a very basic way, but it means arranging them visually aligning the 
images with the text, some elements from images with other elements from the 
web page, it also means creating Javascript menus, or using javascript to make 
the site easier to be used by a sighted.

  Creating .bat files could also imply using some programming, using if 
statements for example, but I don't think a person that knows to create some 
more complicated .bat files can call himself a "programmer".
  It is exactly the same in case of the blind web designers.

  Octavian

    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: inthaneelf 
    To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
    Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 12:39 AM
    Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


    design, the English form, or more likely the American form of it, means to 
create, not specifically to draw, and I said that some work with a graphic is 
possible with the html editor I recommended, sigh, if I need to put every 
single detail in a message I'll be typing for the next week on one message, and 
I don't have time for that... 

    here if you can put the images on in the links, generate the code for the 
web page, and place images on a web page, properly, and other such items of 
coding...  too numerous to be put here, and have it turn out decently looking 
to the sighted, as well as be web accessibility compliant, you are qualified 
for the title of Website designer.  if you specialize in graphical creation, 
generation or modification of images your a graphics designer (these are fast 
and very short descriptions...)

    as I said "designer" is not a graphical term here specifically, though a 
large number of things that are "designed" do have visual aspects, but not all. 

    I am a game designer, and I can't draw, and have never been able to draw 
worth a damn.  I can think of what I want an item in a game to look like, I can 
type out or in the past write out what I want it to look like, or describe it 
to someone, I could, and still can, even build a model of something I want in a 
graphic, paint it, have someone check for mistakes then photograph it and turn 
it into an image for use, but draw, never could, and probably never will even 
if I should be able to get my sight back. 

    regards, 
    inthane
    . For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and Links 
to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit me at:
    http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
    . to be able to view a simple programming project in several programming 
languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
    http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com

      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Octavian Rasnita 
      To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
      Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 1:01 PM
      Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


      If somebody cannot even crop a simple image, that person cannot call 
himself a web designer.
      Even a kid can adjust some image or table sizes in an html document by 
setting some attributes in some HTML elements, but this doesn't mean that the 
person that can do this is a web designer.

      But maybe we speak about different terms. :-)

      See, in my native language, design means something related to visual 
things, like clothing design, graphic art. There are even design faculties that 
teach the students how to draw, how to do other visual arrangements that cannot 
be done by the blind. On the other hand, there are no faculties specialized 
only on "web design".

      And something else... The word "design" is very closed to the word 
"desen" in my language, and desen means "drawing", so when I hear about design, 
I understand that the person that does the design need to be able to draw, to 
paint, to do graphics in general.

      And another thing. If somebody should check and recheck and recheck the 
work of a web designer in order to see if what he done looks fine, because he 
cannot do it, then I don't think that person can name himself a web designer.

      And by the way, I would like to see a good looking site made by a blind 
if there is such a thing. Of course, not good looking and friendly for the 
blind, but good looking for the sighted users perspective. Is there such a 
thing? If yes, then please show me, because until then I won't believe that a 
blind person can work as a web designer.

      Thanks.

      Octavian

        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: inthaneelf 
        To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
        Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 10:18 PM
        Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


        for that the company has a graphics designer, someone that specializes 
in such things, though with the programs I recommended to Marvin he can 
reliably size and place graphics on a web page, and I believe it was on the old 
programming list, the same place that we had this discussion last time.  

        in some places and some smaller companies one person does the graphics 
and the web design, in other places and larger companies the graphics designer 
and the web designer are two different people and work in tandem on something 
like this. 

        I don't know about slide shows, I don't remember if that was mentioned 
by him directly or not, but I do know that folks are building games in flash 
for the blind, go to the site I gave and look around, you will find them.  

        and it may be a case as with power point, once one is sure one has the 
proper materials for a PP presentation, one can construct a slide show in it.   
I have done so, though it was a long time back so remember working in it, and 
yes, I remember having to work double hard and taking the maximum amount of 
time that we were given for the project, but I did it, and the project got me a 
B, so I think I did alright.  

        no, we can't yet work with graphics editing and/or enhancing directly 
yet teddy, but that's not always the case in the world, and stress the not 
always... as I mentioned above.  

        regards, 
        inthane
        . For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and 
Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit me at:
        http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
        . to be able to view a simple programming project in several 
programming languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
        http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com

          ----- Original Message ----- 
          From: Octavian Rasnita 
          To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
          Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 1:33 AM
          Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


          Where did he spoke?

          I am curious how can he create/crop/modify the images, or how can he 
create the graphics on a Flash annimation and how he can verify if what he done 
is ok.

          Where can I read about that?

          Octavian

            ----- Original Message ----- 
            From: inthaneelf 
            To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
            Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 11:03 AM
            Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


            here we go with this again, *sigh* we have had a professional web 
designer out here, who was and is blind...  invited by James homme, and he 
spoke long and straight forward about this... 

            later, 
            inthane
            . For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, 
and Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit me 
at:
            http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
            . to be able to view a simple programming project in several 
programming languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
            http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com

              ----- Original Message ----- 
              From: Octavian Rasnita 
              To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
              Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 11:25 PM
              Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


              Web site development could mean very many things, so they can 
tell you to do many things that are absolutely inaccessible for a blind.

              It could mean server side programming, client side programming, 
database development, server and network administration, and these are 
accessible, but it could also mean web design which is not accessible, or so 
low accessible that it would not help any blind person to become a professional 
web designer.

              Discrimination means very many things also. Nothing could exist 
without beeing discriminatory for some persons.
              For the blind perspective, something absolutely not 
discriminatory would be something which has the same accessibility level for 
everyone, no matter if they can see or not.

              In your case, if the other sighted persons would be able to do 
what that program requires, without using the display, it wouldn't be 
discriminatory, but it couldn't be that way, because all the sighted persons 
think that "sighted is normal", while "blind is not normal".

              In this case, you could ask them to allow you not to follow the 
classes that requires using the mouse, because you cannot use a mouse.
              If the professors or other students would be able to do what you 
need to do without a mouse but only with the keyboard, than I think you would 
be able to do it also.

              Forcing a blind computer programmer to use a mouse could mean 
discrimination.

              Octavian

                ----- Original Message ----- 
                From: marvin hunkin 
                To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
                Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 7:24 AM
                Subject: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


                Hi.
                well, next year looking at doing the diploma in information 
technology, website development.
                a couple of challenges i have, is that a couple of units, i 
probably will not be able to do, as one is to use advanced and basic features 
of adobe photoshop, to crop, manipulate images, and create 2d and 3d animation, 
using adobe flash, as part of my major project.
                Now, the National Traning Information System, which is governed 
by a national curriculum, for tafe across Australia, and comes from the 
department of education, canberra.
                now, as i will have trouble being deemed competent, because 
jaws, will not work with this software, as a core part of the course, and i 
have spoken to my disability office and the main lecturer, who organises the 
learning curriculum and talks to other lecturers.
                they will be using adobe photo shop, adobe flash.
                i know, i could probably use the flash development kit, but the 
major challenge is the graphics side of things.  So they are willing to bend, 
in their curriculum, as they said i would have an advantage, if i had sighted 
help to crop, edit and manipulate the objects.
                so, got any tips, tricks, or any work arounds for that, or is 
this a dissability discrimination act complaint, that might change their mind 
and bend to accomodate, not just me, but another vision impaired friend of mine 
is doing the same diploma with new south wales tafe, as this is a national 
curriculum, and has been rolled out as the new training package for the past 12 
months.
                if you can let me know, how to get round this problem, as the 
other subjects, i should be able to use php, editor, my sql database, visual 
studio.net 2005, for the asp stuff, etc.
                if anyone has had the same problem or situation, let me know 
asap.
                having a meeting soon to review what i have done this year for 
certificate iv in website development.
                cheers marvin.


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