Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash

Hi all,
As an employer, the bottom line is whether or not the person has the requisite knowledge, skills, and abilities, and can get the job done efficiently without the constant supervision and additional expense of 2 people doing the same job. Why would I want to hire someone if he or she will need someone else to complete or correct their work. I can simply hire a single person with multiple skills that can get the job done by him or herself and the entire group will work harmoniously as all will pull their own weight. The goal as an employer is to get as much done and paying as little as possible. Why would I hire 5 different companies to renovate a property when I can hire a single crew with all the same skill sets. Think about it, I'm sure many of you have been in a situation where you have found yourself with a group of blind people, and I'm sure you've stood waiting impatiently while many in the group have to be helped to do something you feel takes no effort--it is very, very frustrating. I'm sure some sighted employees will feel the same about a fellow blind employee they have to work with. Time is money, unless you work for some nonprofit or governmental agency where productivity is not crucial as there never seems to be any sense of urgency or accountability in these agencies. A number of years ago when I was looking for work with the government, I was told by a state employment agency for the disabled that by law I only needed to be able to complete 80% of the job description or else the government could be charged with discriminating against me. I really wanted the job so I didn't say anything, but I was actually really upset at the fact that they were trying to sell me off as a person they "had" to hire rather than someone they wanted to hire. My point? why hire someone you know cannot possibly give you 100% when you can hire someone who will give you 110% for the same amount of money. Regarding repeatedly asking someone to look over your designs, this will get very old very fast even for the most Christian group member. 

Thanks,

Matthew
---- Original Message ----- From: "John Greer" <jpgreer17@xxxxxxxxxxx> 
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 11:26 PM
Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash
Actually there are fields of web design that a blind person could do, but I will have to say that the graphic design part of the field could not be done. If this is also not the case please let me know of any blind people you know of that can take a black circle and with photoshop make it into an image of a clock from 1 to 12 o'clock with the correct render shading etc. That was my original point. While a blind person could get a job in some positions of the web design process, graphics design he or she will not be. Like any profession, web design has many positions that can be filled. From concept designer to data management. You don't necessarily need to be the person laying out the look and feel of the web page to be a part of a web design team. Another example of what I mean is audio engineering. Most people think of audio engineering as sitting behind a mixing board with a ton of inaccessible controls, but there are other positions in the audio engineering field that don't require doing that part of the job. Audio editor is also part of audio engineering and that can very possibly be done using many of the audio editing tools available to the blind. ----- Original Message ----- From: Octavian Rasnita 
 To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
 Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 12:39 AM
 Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash
Well, if somebody can create an html page, he can call himself a web designer, because he arranged the text and graphics on the web page, set colors, fonts, and so on, but the quality of a web page design that's made by a blind person is much lower than the one made by a sighted.
And if the quality of the design made by a blind is low, that person cannot compete with the sighted designers. This is a reason I say that the blind web designer is not a web designer.
Web page design doesn't mean just arranging the text and images on the web page in a very basic way, but it means arranging them visually aligning the images with the text, some elements from images with other elements from the web page, it also means creating Javascript menus, or using javascript to make the site easier to be used by a sighted.
Creating .bat files could also imply using some programming, using if statements for example, but I don't think a person that knows to create some more complicated .bat files can call himself a "programmer". 
 It is exactly the same in case of the blind web designers.

 Octavian
----- Original Message ----- From: inthaneelf 
   To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
   Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 12:39 AM
   Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash
design, the English form, or more likely the American form of it, means to create, not specifically to draw, and I said that some work with a graphic is possible with the html editor I recommended, sigh, if I need to put every single detail in a message I'll be typing for the next week on one message, and I don't have time for that...
here if you can put the images on in the links, generate the code for the web page, and place images on a web page, properly, and other such items of coding... too numerous to be put here, and have it turn out decently looking to the sighted, as well as be web accessibility compliant, you are qualified for the title of Website designer. if you specialize in graphical creation, generation or modification of images your a graphics designer (these are fast and very short descriptions...)
as I said "designer" is not a graphical term here specifically, though a large number of things that are "designed" do have visual aspects, but not all.
I am a game designer, and I can't draw, and have never been able to draw worth a damn. I can think of what I want an item in a game to look like, I can type out or in the past write out what I want it to look like, or describe it to someone, I could, and still can, even build a model of something I want in a graphic, paint it, have someone check for mistakes then photograph it and turn it into an image for use, but draw, never could, and probably never will even if I should be able to get my sight back. 

   regards,
   inthane
. For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit me at: 
   http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
. to be able to view a simple programming project in several programming languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at: 
   http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
----- Original Message ----- From: Octavian Rasnita 
     To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
     Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 1:01 PM
     Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash
If somebody cannot even crop a simple image, that person cannot call himself a web designer. Even a kid can adjust some image or table sizes in an html document by setting some attributes in some HTML elements, but this doesn't mean that the person that can do this is a web designer. 

     But maybe we speak about different terms. :-)
See, in my native language, design means something related to visual things, like clothing design, graphic art. There are even design faculties that teach the students how to draw, how to do other visual arrangements that cannot be done by the blind. On the other hand, there are no faculties specialized only on "web design".
And something else... The word "design" is very closed to the word "desen" in my language, and desen means "drawing", so when I hear about design, I understand that the person that does the design need to be able to draw, to paint, to do graphics in general.
And another thing. If somebody should check and recheck and recheck the work of a web designer in order to see if what he done looks fine, because he cannot do it, then I don't think that person can name himself a web designer.
And by the way, I would like to see a good looking site made by a blind if there is such a thing. Of course, not good looking and friendly for the blind, but good looking for the sighted users perspective. Is there such a thing? If yes, then please show me, because until then I won't believe that a blind person can work as a web designer. 

     Thanks.

     Octavian
----- Original Message ----- From: inthaneelf 
       To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
       Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 10:18 PM
       Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash
for that the company has a graphics designer, someone that specializes in such things, though with the programs I recommended to Marvin he can reliably size and place graphics on a web page, and I believe it was on the old programming list, the same place that we had this discussion last time.
in some places and some smaller companies one person does the graphics and the web design, in other places and larger companies the graphics designer and the web designer are two different people and work in tandem on something like this.
I don't know about slide shows, I don't remember if that was mentioned by him directly or not, but I do know that folks are building games in flash for the blind, go to the site I gave and look around, you will find them.
and it may be a case as with power point, once one is sure one has the proper materials for a PP presentation, one can construct a slide show in it. I have done so, though it was a long time back so remember working in it, and yes, I remember having to work double hard and taking the maximum amount of time that we were given for the project, but I did it, and the project got me a B, so I think I did alright.
no, we can't yet work with graphics editing and/or enhancing directly yet teddy, but that's not always the case in the world, and stress the not always... as I mentioned above. 

       regards,
       inthane
. For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit me at: 
       http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
. to be able to view a simple programming project in several programming languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at: 
       http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
----- Original Message ----- From: Octavian Rasnita 
         To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
         Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 1:33 AM
         Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


         Where did he spoke?
I am curious how can he create/crop/modify the images, or how can he create the graphics on a Flash annimation and how he can verify if what he done is ok. 

         Where can I read about that?

         Octavian
----- Original Message ----- From: inthaneelf 
           To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
           Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 11:03 AM
           Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash
here we go with this again, *sigh* we have had a professional web designer out here, who was and is blind... invited by James homme, and he spoke long and straight forward about this... 

           later,
           inthane
. For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit me at: 
           http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
. to be able to view a simple programming project in several programming languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at: 
           http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
----- Original Message ----- From: Octavian Rasnita 
             To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
             Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 11:25 PM
             Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash
Web site development could mean very many things, so they can tell you to do many things that are absolutely inaccessible for a blind.
It could mean server side programming, client side programming, database development, server and network administration, and these are accessible, but it could also mean web design which is not accessible, or so low accessible that it would not help any blind person to become a professional web designer.
Discrimination means very many things also. Nothing could exist without beeing discriminatory for some persons. For the blind perspective, something absolutely not discriminatory would be something which has the same accessibility level for everyone, no matter if they can see or not.
In your case, if the other sighted persons would be able to do what that program requires, without using the display, it wouldn't be discriminatory, but it couldn't be that way, because all the sighted persons think that "sighted is normal", while "blind is not normal".
In this case, you could ask them to allow you not to follow the classes that requires using the mouse, because you cannot use a mouse. If the professors or other students would be able to do what you need to do without a mouse but only with the keyboard, than I think you would be able to do it also.
Forcing a blind computer programmer to use a mouse could mean discrimination. 

             Octavian
----- Original Message ----- From: marvin hunkin 
               To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
               Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 7:24 AM
               Subject: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


               Hi.
well, next year looking at doing the diploma in information technology, website development. a couple of challenges i have, is that a couple of units, i probably will not be able to do, as one is to use advanced and basic features of adobe photoshop, to crop, manipulate images, and create 2d and 3d animation, using adobe flash, as part of my major project. Now, the National Traning Information System, which is governed by a national curriculum, for tafe across Australia, and comes from the department of education, canberra. now, as i will have trouble being deemed competent, because jaws, will not work with this software, as a core part of the course, and i have spoken to my disability office and the main lecturer, who organises the learning curriculum and talks to other lecturers. 
               they will be using adobe photo shop, adobe flash.
i know, i could probably use the flash development kit, but the major challenge is the graphics side of things. So they are willing to bend, in their curriculum, as they said i would have an advantage, if i had sighted help to crop, edit and manipulate the objects. so, got any tips, tricks, or any work arounds for that, or is this a dissability discrimination act complaint, that might change their mind and bend to accomodate, not just me, but another vision impaired friend of mine is doing the same diploma with new south wales tafe, as this is a national curriculum, and has been rolled out as the new training package for the past 12 months. if you can let me know, how to get round this problem, as the other subjects, i should be able to use php, editor, my sql database, visual studio.net 2005, for the asp stuff, etc. if anyone has had the same problem or situation, let me know asap. having a meeting soon to review what i have done this year for certificate iv in website development. 
               cheers marvin.


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