Can I just throw in a bit of humour here? I know I don't respond much on this list, but how can anyone imagine a programming language with the acronym resembling a highly contagious viral disease of the salivary glands? Hmmm!
Bob J. wrote:
Inthane, MUMPS (as I know it) is an interpreted language that runs on what might still be referred to as a "main frame" system. I know of no compiler to generate a stand-alone executable file from MUMPS code that could be run in the Microsoft Windows environment. If anybody knows of one, I would be interested in hearing about it. Bob----- Original Message ----- From: "inthaneelf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 11:46 AM Subject: Re: About lisp bob, since your familiar with it, would it be useful still to new programmers and do you think it is a "stand the test of time" language? if you feel it is, would you be willing to do a fruit basket demo in it so I can put it up on the fbd site for reference? if you wish to, there is a downloadable file with the criteria for the demo project on the site at: http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com thanks, inthane . For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit me at: http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com . to be able to view a simple programming project in several programming languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at: http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob J." <rjustice004@xxxxxxxxxx>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 10:47 AM Subject: Re: About lispLast I heard, MUMPS is still alive and well although they now prefer to call it "M Technology." I retired as a MUMPS programmer about 17 months ago from the U. S. Department of Veterans Affairs. The curious may find info about this ANSI language at www.hardhats.org Bob----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Beech" <a.beech@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 5:03 AM Subject: RE: About lisp Yikes, Snobol... never thought I'd see that one mentioned again! To add to the trip down memory lane how about PL/1, ADA, Mumps, Simula64, BCPL, Prolog and and for good measure Modula-2. Sigh, the glory days of C... when real programmers didn't eat quiche :) Cheers. AB -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of tribble Sent: Thursday, 28 February 2008 8:26 AM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: About lisp Yes, I think you are right -- there are a lot of general purpose languages out there lately. That is curious. It used to be languages were application specific -- fortran (formula translation) for engineers, snobol for string and list processing, a few functional languages for highly specialized recursive apps, apl for obfuscated math (sorry, apl read right to left and was painfully terse and tool a while getting used to), cobol for people who wanted to program database apps in english *smile*, web programming or markup languages for the net when it emerged, and dozens more -- when I was working they had application oriented languages (which they called AOL's) for use on the phone system software, I think with the explosion of AOL's there was a desire to write a general purpose language that could do everything. Then smalltalk and eiffel and c++ et al came along and then java and c#, and extensions to vb and perl/php to do OO-like designs, and python and ruby and whatever else... My fingers are getting tired *smile* So there is many to one and one to many and this keeps hoards of programmers employed as they try to grab the coolest features for their projects...*smile* I think it's interesting that python is indentation sensitive. Sounds like a pain for blind programmers that don't look at indentation, but I also think it is a plus for those same programmers as it makes for code that can be shared with sighted programmers. Anyway, happy hacking! --le----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Hofstader" <chris.hofstader@xxxxxxxxxxx>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 7:10 AM Subject: RE: About lisp Hi, I always thought of that other editor as: type vi at the command prompt and very little will change. The one thing that I'm a bit curious about these days is why the sudden explosion of new languages? For the longest time, a platform had its primary language, UNIX, GNU/Linux and DOS used C, Macintosh had some dialect of Pascal and AppleEvents, mainframes had Fortran and COBOL, VMS had PL/I. There were also a lot of narrowly focused languages like Lisp for AI work, DB2 for databases, JCL for making your mainframe happy, etc. In the last few years, though, I see an increasingly large number of general purpose languages arriving on the scene (Ruby, Python, Lua, C#, J#, Java and a bunch more) and I can't entirely understand why so many people are investing so much time and money in programming languages. cdh -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of tribble Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 6:38 AM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: About lisp Hey Chris -- I never heard that historical vignette about emacs -- thanks for the flashback! I remember that time period but at the time I was using "that other editor", vi, but emacs definitely was a major presence. It's funny but it is easy to lapse into nostalgia over cool projects that we were working on back then, especially if the software got popular and used by a lot of people, but in the corporate world with management shooting down projects like ducks, they used to tell people not to get emotionally attached to projects, which a lot of people did, both guys and gals, so the dynamics were crazy -- but my response to the recommendation not to get attached to a project was that after picking bits for 60 hours a week for months or years on a piece of software, and seeing it trashed, it really wasn't possible to dissociate from a project totally -- you needed to like the project in order to put that much effort into it, but projects came and went so fast you soon learned to be mercenary. I think the 80s and 90s were pivotal in computer science though, so small bit-picking projects such as DOS for example (not that I ever worked on DOS) exploded into phenomena like Microsoft and windows that took over the world, and the stuff we all did on C++ back in the 80s and 90s also was pivotal, and when it started getting popular everyone was trying to jump onto it. Isuppose times are similar now, but not so much as in the 80s and 90s -- forall those currently working in the industry, is that true? My impression is that projects are smaller and more numerous and come and go more quickly. Happy hacking all! --le----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Hofstader" <chris.hofstader@xxxxxxxxxxx>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 6:03 AM Subject: RE: About lisp Of course, you are correct I wasn't referring to a GUI for programming in Lisp as, back in those days, emacs was the Lisp programming environment for Lisp hacking and virtually all of those guys agreed upon it as the best solution. Goz wrote the first emacs in some strange system that was difficult and even more difficult to modify. Stallman and the others agreed that Lisp was the perfect language for making editors and other tools like them and thus was born the emacs we all know and love. When Goz went off to commercialize all of the cool system tools made around the AI lab in those days, he took the Lisp version and called it UniPress emacs. Stallman and the others founding Project GNU gave distributed the Lisp based one as GNU emacs. Getting all nostalgic again: back in those years UniPress ran a monthly full page advert in UNIX World with a whole bunch of heads in shadow on a grey background with quotes on why they preferred Gosmacs. At FSF, we took a bit of our fundraising budget and got photos of a big chunk of the computer science pantheon (including Minsky, McCarthy, Guy Steele, Hal Abelson, Gerry Sussman, Rodney Brooks, Patrick Winston, Knuth, Bob Boyer and others whom I cannot think of with my caffeine mg to hour ratio so dangerously low) and, arranged exactly like their ad but with the text, "GNU Emacs Users Aren't Afraid to Show Our Faces," and, under each giant of the field a quote praising both emacs and another extolling project GNU or the concept of free software. We believe we won the day when Unipress had a totally different ad the following month saying something about how one can never know what they may get if they use a program that includes the source. We fired back with a one luminary per month advertisement series saying exactly why the GNU versions were more stable, more secure and, of course, you don't have to wait for some programmers in New Jersey to fix bugs because you already have the source and can do it yourself. In those years, the proportion of people who read UNIX World who were also programmers of some sort was pretty huge. Sina, I know you aren't fond of emacs but, keep in mind, this debate was going on about a decade before you were born and anything that even approached a integrated development environment was radically cool. Over that decade, we added so much like full integration with lots of languages, gdb and so many other cool things that people take entirely for granted these days. It was a real exciting time to be around the lab, around GNU and, if one had an interest in programming tools, I doubt any other point in space time (except maybe at Parc Place when Adele was in charge) could even give the slightest indication of what it felt like. Knowing you as well as I do, I think you would have felt as though you had stumbled into Xanadu if, at 21 years old, you were like many of the other guys your age who made that stuff happen in the lab back then. I'll go start the history/mid-life crisis list later today. Enjoy, cdh -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Sina Bahram Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 11:24 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: RE: About lisp It's interesting that you mentioned a novel windowing system and not a graphics interface for programmers. *smile*, two quite separate things. One deals in abstract terms involving stacks, queues, overlays, priority scheduling, possibly coordinate management, and so on. The other deals with setting the background color to red, defining buttons inside of classes for windows, and generally very dirty looking code. The former can be quite beautiful, and still is, in lisp, the latter is hardly beautiful in any language, especially in lisp. Take care, Sina -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Chris Hofstader Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 10:55 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: RE: About lisp The first known windowing system was written by Richard Greenblatt in Lisp at MIT when he was still a student. He would later go onto Director of AI and then form LMI (Lisp Machines Incorporated) which would be at the center of the controversy that would pit Greenblatt/Stallman and the free software people (Hal, Jerry, Rod, etc.) against those who would form Symbolics and the other proprietary source companies that just took the work from the AI Lab and commercialized it. No one really remembers Symbolics or Goz and that crowd nor does anyone remember LMI. Greenblatt's Sleazy Windowing System, however, has a solid place in history. Unfortunately, Greenblatt and his crew had to invent a new computer designed specifically to run Lisp and the windowing system as nothing on the market had either the horsepower or the kinds of processor instructions needed to run Lisp with any efficiency back then. cdh -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 8:55 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: RE: About lisp I want to agree with Sina here if your going to write Lisp write lisp don't try to shove GUI into it cause that just spells guilisp and unless you have the flew you don't need that. Ken -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Sina Bahram Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 5:37 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: RE: About lisp Ken did a great job with that one, and he realized a great deal of the headache that goes into lisp and GUI programming, but I will say that it is a horrible example of lisp. This has nothing at all to do with Ken's code, which is great. It's just that the lisp fruit basket is not representative of the really powerful phrasings of most problems that can exist in lisp, and instead it ends up being multi-line calls of special parameters to functions to design a win32 dialog. Take care, Sina -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of inthaneelf Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 8:23 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: About lisp I believe I have some info on lisp in the definitions file for the fruit basket demo version in that language, either that or I got some info from one of the computer dictionaries on a search from it, both of which have links on the fruit basket home page. HTH, Inthane . For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit me at: http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com . to be able to view a simple programming project in several programming languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at: http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "tribble" <lauraeaves@xxxxxxxxx> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 6:20 AM Subject: Re: About lispRe: apl I wonder if it was just one of those academic languages there only for the purpose of teaching a comparative language class... Which leads me to the following: Did anyone ever program in a language called icon? It was popular when I got my masters, but I haven't heard of it lately... --le ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Hofstader" <chris.hofstader@xxxxxxxxxxx> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 6:05 AM Subject: RE: About lisp I never even met someone who programmed in APL. My brother made his living in SmallTalk and all of its graphicality for a while but now he's working for Microsoft and, I'd assume, he works using their languages. cdh -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Sina Bahram Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 8:41 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: RE: About lisp APL is such an amazingly cool sounding language ... I really tried to get into it a while back, but it's not easy to program in a graphical programming language, *grin* Take care, Sina -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of tribble Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 3:15 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: About lisp ah yes, snobol -- loved that language -- memories -- the runtime environment we used to run snobol was called spitbol (kind of weird) -- did you ever write anything in apl? That was a fun one also that stretched the mind a bit. I don't know about current use of lisp. --le ----- Original Message ----- From: "Macarty, Jay {PBSG}" <Jay.Macarty@xxxxxxxx> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 6:01 PM Subject: About lisp Sina, Way back in the day, I took a course on languages which covered about 8 different ones in a single course. Probably the most obscure of these was snobol for which a class mate and I wrote an interpreter. I recall studying lisp but was wondering what it is generally used for these days and if a free command line compiler is available? -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Sina Bahram Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 9:03 AM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: RE: what is Hex? You're absolutely correct my friend. Needless to say I feel extremely bad about this. Sorry! I sat down and wrote out -127 in twos complement and realized I can also represent -128. Obviously this applies to 32 bit representations and so on, as well. Sorry again ... It appears that programming in lisp and java have dulled my senses. Take care, Sina ________________________________ From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Nirandas Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 12:02 AM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: what is Hex? Hi Sina, As I understand, a byte can contain 256 unique values. So a signed byte's maximum and minimum range should be -128 to 127 not -127 to 127. Nirandas ----- Original Message ----- From: Sina Bahram <mailto:sbahram@xxxxxxxxx> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 9:50 AM Subject: RE: what is Hex? Again, I'm sorry for the disagreement, but there are several flaws in this explanation. I've attempted to correct them below. The standard byte's signed values are -127 to 127, not -128 to 127 ... it's being picky, but this is extremely important and the source of 90% of most security flaws today. A standard word is a misnomer. This assumes a two byte word which is only true on 16-bit architecture. A word can be 16 bits, 32-bits, or even 11 bits in some platforms ... it just depends. A double word can be 32 bits, but it can also be 16 bits in some platforms or not even supported in others, so there is no standard here. However, using twos complement, I must again clarrify the minimum and maximum of a 16 bit value, since it is not -32768 to 32767, I'm afraid, but is instead -32767 to 32767 As for a 32 bit value, the minimum and maximum are as follows. Using twos complement, the signed minimum and maximum of a 32-bit integer are -2147483647 to 2147483647 , and the minimum and maximum of an unsigned 32 bit integer are 0 to 4294967295 Hope this clears things up. Take care, Sina -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ian D. Nichols Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 5:40 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: what is Hex? Hi Listers, As I see it, things have become a little muddled here, both in James's message and in Sina's reply. The standard byte is still 8 bits, containing unsigned values of 0 to 255 and signed values of -128 to +127. The word contains 16 bits, with unsigned values of 0 to 65535, and signed values of -32768 to +32767. The double word contains 32 bits, with very large values possible. Unsigned, 0 to 4 thousand millions, and signed values from -2 thousand millions to + 2 thousand millions, more or less. I hope I've got my thinking straight on that, and haven't caused further confusion. All the best, Ian Ian D. Nichols, Toronto, Canada ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 4:58 PM Subject: RE: what is Hex? A few things. big endian versus little endian is arbritrary, so it's not a fact with respect to storage. More importantly, the minimum and maximum of a signed 32 bit integer is not -65535 to 65535, it's actually -32767 to 32767 If it is signed, then it is 0 to 65535 At the end of the day, you only have 2^16 permutations of 16 bits in a binary system; thus, you have a maximum of 65536 positions, and so you have half as much capacity if you are using twos complement to allow for both negative numbers and the concept of 0. Hope this helps Take care, Sina -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of James Panes Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 2:35 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: what is Hex? Yes, Hexidecimal numbers are 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, A, B, C, D, E, F for a total of 16 possible digit values. As stated before, this is much more convenient for the computer as 16 is an even power of 2 and computers actually use binary, 0 and 1. The hexidecimal representation is actually easier for humans to read than binary. Hexidecimal digits are grouped into groups of 2 for a total of 16 x 16 or 256 possible values. This is a standard byte. Before unicode, a single byte value was used to represent an alphanumeric character and two bytes or a word were used to represent a 32 bit integer with values possible from -65535 to 65535. This explains the limit of the size of variables in older games. The original Intel 8086 processor had 16 bit registers. Operations for anything larger had to be synthisized with software. What's more, for integer values larger than 255, the least significant pair of digits is stored first. For example, if you were looking for the value 301 (decimal) in a game save file, you would find it represented as 23 01 in the save file. Since this list is about programming and not game save file hacking, I will end my lecture here. Anyone with further interest in this topic can write me off-list Regards, Jim jimpanes@xxxxxxxxx jimpanes@xxxxxxxxxxxx "Everything is easy when you know how." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Valiant (on laptop)" <valiant@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 8:43 AM Subject: Re: what is Hex? Hi. I didn't see anyone mention this part about hex. Hex is just another number scale like the standard one 0 to 9 or the binary one 0 to 1. Hex is 0 to f I think, making it bass 16, where the one we use every day 0 to 9 is bass 10 and binary is bass, hmm, someone help? 0 to 1? The possible digits in hex are 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, a, b, c, d, e, f can't remember if hex starts with 0. It lets you have larger numbers without taking up as much space. MAC addresses on networking equipment use it. some of that could be wrong, it's been two whole years since I had to study that, here. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 4:03 PM Subject: RE: what is Hex? 21, but yes he is, Thanks Chris Take care, Sina -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Marlon Brandão de Sousa Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 12:12 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: what is Hex? Are you serious about Sina being 22 years old only? Man I have seen people who have studied computers for many more than this quantity of years and don't seen to know a half of what Sina knows easily ... Marlon 2008/2/15, Chris Hofstader <chris.hofstader@xxxxxxxxxxx>:God Sina, you bring back memories of Z80 and needing to "poke" instructions and data into memory before execution. I would have thought you, who was born in 1986 would never had to get to that level. Personally, I think it's a really valuable exercise evenifone never actually needs to use it in a "real" program just to geta better understanding of what a processor "sees"and how base 16 numbers can be turned into both instructions anddatadepending upon how the processor looks at them. In the network edition of "Bank Street Writer" a word processing program written entirely in assembly, that was pretty popular intheyears before you learned to talk, I added a function called, "DON'T_CALL_THIS." If you did call it the program would crash astheinstructions looked random. If, however, you looked at the last handful of bytes of the program as ASCII, it read "FSMITHISAWORM." Frank Smith, a really great guy, was the client on the gig and we decided to immortalize him in an Easter Egg that only an ubergeekcould find.Now, just for shits and giggles, try to reconstruct the functionin80x86 assembly and receive the truly wasted chunk of time award. cdh -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Sina Bahram Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 9:28 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: RE: what is Hex? *smile*, wlel actually, if you really want to get down to it ...it can be.Assembler compiles down to executable instructions to theprocessor,which are most often and most easily read in hex. I used to know almost all of the 8086 instructions and some oftheirhex equivalents a while back. It's really useful when analysing exploit and virus code. Take care, Sina -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of AlexHallSent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 8:47 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: re: what is Hex? Right, but it almost sounds like some sort of programminglanguage.Have a great day, Alex----- Original Message ----- From: Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@xxxxxxxxxxxx To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Date sent: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 17:27:12 -0800 Subject: re: what is Hex? Hi Alex, It's a shortened form of hexadecimal. Cheers, Joseph----- Original Message ----- From: Alex Hall <mehgcap@xxxxxxx To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Date sent: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 20:18:21 -0500 Subject: what is Hex? Hi all Whatis this Hex that has been talked aboutrecently?Have a great day, Alex __________ View the list's information and change yoursettings at//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ NOD32 2878 (20080215) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind-- When you say "I wrote a program that crashed Windows," people just stare at you blankly and say "Hey, I got those with the system, for free." 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