Re: ADA Section 508 Compliance on StudentLoans.gov?
- From: "Donald Marang" <donald.marang@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 10:13:29 -0400
Thanks for the detailed explanation. I will try to find the time to look at
the source code. My take was that the code was not very sophisticated since
they automatically fill in dashs for you as you type but do not filter out
dashes if they are typed. At the very least, these forms are not very well
thought out.
Don Marang
From: RicksPlace
Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 9:34 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: ADA Section 508 Compliance on StudentLoans.gov?
It is not only possible but common. There can be problems with nested controls
depending on how focus is handled. It can also be a problem with the type of
Accessibility hooks, CSS or dynamic content on the page. For example, if they
do validation on the server side a postback can cause focus to be reset and, if
the web manager does not scroll focus ito the proper position, focus will be
lost. On the other hand, the Web Master may be doing everything correctly
according to Web Standards but the screen reader might not be using the newer
Accessibility tags correctly. This is getting to be a bigger and bigger
problem as more sites move to the new html and css accessibility tags. If the
validation is done Client Side the focus can also get messed up on the site
itself if the Web Master does not ReSet focus after performing some JavaScript
validation of a field. The fact that you heard some of the numbers that were
suppose to be protected indicates a Client Side approach to filling out that
field. If the process of validation is slow and you type quickly you can mess
that process up. If they don't validate correctly for the hyphens that can mess
up the validation as well. That said, I don't think a screen reader should read
the numbers if they are protected and the fault here would reside with the
screen reader if the actual numbers were not being displayed and with the
Webpage if the numbers were not visually displayed but being picked up by the
Screen Reader. It is just impossible to tell whta is going on without viewing
the source code for the page itself. Try this: Go back into the Webpage and
start doing something like entering a dummy value for something. Then under
your browser's view menu, hit enter on the View Source object. It might take a
couple of minutes and some scrolling up and down the text editor to get it all
loaded - if it can be loaded. Then copy and paste the entire source code into a
text document and you can look at the actual html, javascript and other things
related to the fields you are having trouble with. This might give you some
idea of why things are not working as indicated. You might even get an idea of
how better to get around the problems but my guess is that the site is using
Accessibility hooks for javascript, CSS and dynamic html that your screen
reader is having trouble with. At least you will know what technologies are
related to the problematic fields like the Social Security Number.
Rick USA
----- Original Message -----
From: Donald Marang
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 9:14 AM
Subject: Re: ADA Section 508 Compliance on StudentLoans.gov?
Thanks, I will try those leads. Those pages do not seem that fancy or high
tech. There is a lot of verification going on for each field. For instance,
to log in a Social Security number is required. It is a semi-protected field
in that when you type you just hear * for each character. I am told that the
field automatically adds the dashes as you type. Unfortunately, the user has
no idea whether to type the dashes or not. They can not hear that dashes are
being inserted or not. Strangely, if you type in dashes, it does not ignore
these characters. It just will fail to log you in! I used the term
semi-private for these protected fields because sometimes as I was attempting
to get back to the next field the actual numbers in the field would be spoken
instead of the * characters. I have written sinmple JavaScript for webpage
field verification. Is it possible to write bad JavaScript that would vastly
screw up the focus? The limited JavaScript I wrote never changed the focus
unless I set it to another field on purpose.
Don Marang
From: RicksPlace
Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 5:49 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: ADA Section 508 Compliance on StudentLoans.gov?
Hi Don: Congratulations on having a Daughter and again for her getting into
University!
I have seen The problems you describe on other sites. It could be a Website
Problem or a Screen Reader Problem. When you try and type into one of those
boxes like for Social Security Number, see if there are seperat boxes you can
tab to to enter each number parings. Often you can just type the long number
and let the Webpage format them but sometimes it works slow or not very well
with a screen reader. The focus problem could be from dynamic content on the
page or the Webpage not scrolling the cursor or something else. I am not sure
who would be the appropriate Watchdog Group to report them too. I Sort of
thought NFB and ACB were performing that function but I'm not sure about that.
They have the lawyers to check it out and contact Vendors about such things if
they brush you off. . You might also contact your Screen Reader group to see if
anyone has any quick suggestions for using that site.
That form is nasty, I could not do it a few years ago so my Daughter did it,
every year if I remember, when she attended the University Of Michigan. I
think the President has said it is bloated and
overly complex and has instructed some commission or other to look into it.
The problem there is that will likely take years to implement where you want a
solution sooner rather than later - at least before your Daughter is of
retirement age, grin!
Well, try contacting someone at NFB about this to see if they are aware of
the problem and have any suggestions. Again, it might be a Screen Reader
problem so don't take anyone's head off until you are sure who is responsible.
There have been allot of accessibility changes over the past couple years and
the Screen Reader companies are behind in getting all of them implemented.
Rick USA
----- Original Message -----
From: Donald Marang
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 2:52 AM
Subject: ADA Section 508 Compliance on StudentLoans.gov?
Today I attempted to sign a Master Promissory Note on StudentsLoans.gov for
my daughter. It was one of the most important on-line transactions and worst
experience I ever had! This is a US Government site and as of July 1st, became
a monopoly because all of these loans are now directly serviced by the
government, not a variety of commercial banks. The entire site is what I would
call unusable for screen readers! The site and its sister site for filling out
the student's financial aid needs (FAFSA)require you to fill out forms. The
forms are nearly impossible to fill out! The biggest problem is a focus issue.
After filling out a field and pressing Tab, the focus moves randomly around
the page! Even signing in requires you to enter Social Security number, first
two letters of last name date of birth, and PIN. Both SSN and DOB require you
not to enter dashes or slashes and fill them in for you in a semi-secure
password field. The example says to enter in mm/dd/yyyy format, but if you do
the log in fails! Again, it is impossible to fill out more than two of these
fields without losing focus and returning to the top of the page or elsewhere.
I had someone from the hotline on the phone for two hours to simply
electronically sign a document!
I has similar and worse experiences on the site to create the PIN and to
fill out the long FAFSA application. For instance, there were at least three
definitions for how to calculate the number in your household. I needed to go
back into the FAFSA after completing and submitting the application. The page
to correct the form is very bizarre and has the information as previously
entered in a column and then a field in a second column to make the correction
appears if you click to change that piece of data. Again, the focus is a major
issue on this page. I was very careful about just changing the number in
household number. I found out later that night when calling their hotline a
completely different question, that the agent told me that there was no longer
a last name on the application! Since the last name and Social Security number
are part of the sign in process, it was impossible to correct on-line and had
to be handled by snail mail!
I thought all government sites had to be accessible by ADA law. These
sites are particularly Important to the blind! Is there a department of the
government to report such sites? What are the relevant regulations / laws in
this circumstance? What are the possible actions / reparations that can be
taken? I thought it was impossible to sue the federal government. However,
Social Security was recently required to send blind people letters on CD or
large print if requested. That was the result of some type of legal action.
Don Marang
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