[program-java] Re: Java certification

  • From: "Stanzel, Susan - Kansas City, MO" <susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: "program-java@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <program-java@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 10:06:03 -0500

I am going to join a study group. The book used is "Sun Cirtified Programmer 
for Java 6 Study Guide" SCJP by Kathy Sierra and Bert Bates 

Does anyone know of this book? I think it weighs three pounds. I would hate to 
scan it in (grin).

Susie

-----Original Message-----
From: program-java-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:program-java-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Fidler
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 10:00 AM
To: program-java@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [program-java] Re: Java certification

Jim,

Agreed!  To help clarify, in this thread I was initially assuming first that 
the developer has some real world experience since Susie fits this category 
from what I have been able to deduce based on her posts.  Now that the 
thread has taken on a larger scope:

In my experieince, the reputable certifications seem to provide an edge in 
many cases.  In those cases where a company is looking for more senior 
candidates who have some real world experience in a production environment, 
it seems that the reputable credentials provide some advantage in that it 
'ensures' some understood baseline mastery of the subject.  Also, I have 
noticed that 'fresh' recruits tend to have better success if they come from 
a prestigious school (e.g. here in Western PA Carnegie Mellon credentials 
are sacred) or if they do not have this, a reputable certification does 
provide an edge over the competition in many cases for the same reason as 
above.

It may take a couple of weeks to understand the development life cycle 
activities in the real world (e.g. source code version control, test driven 
development, functional requirement walkthroughs,technical design, technical 
design walkthroughs, development environment vs. integration/staging 
environment vs. QA environments, related defect and enhancement request 
during the development life cycle in these various environments, etc. etc.), 
and it takes maybe a few months before these processes become reflexive and 
familiar.But, if the developer is lacking certain areas of expertise in the 
constructs and theory of the language itself, that learning curve can be a 
matter of months or maybe even years or even never!  It just helps to know 
with some degree of certainty that the candidate has a good grasp on the 
language-level concerns so their time will be spent learning real world 
development processes while doing the familiar problem solving in their 
daily programming tasks.

Along other lines,  I guess if nothing else, the certification indicates 
ambition or assertiveness or just a deep interest in the subject matter, 
etc.   It may also indicate that the candidate takes the career practicing 
the subject matter seriously, as well.  More generally, I guess it is 
reflective of the candidate's character: it just indicates that the 
candidate is cognizant of the importance of verifying a certain baseline of 
knowledge in the context of understanding that it is a competitive field, 
indicating that they take the whole matter seriously.

Thinking back to a former post, I suppose the lister that said, 'It can't 
hurt.' summed it up very well without all of my extra words!

Kind regards,
Jeff

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Corbett, James" <James.Corbett@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <program-java@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 9:49 AM
Subject: [program-java] Re: Java certification


Jeff:

Interesting perspective.

I agree that it's hard to fake certifications that are registered with 
reparable organisations but a certification alone does not make a 
programmer. I've seen those who are certified up the ying yang but couldn't 
produce in a prod environment.

Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: program-java-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:program-java-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Fidler
Sent: August 23, 2010 16:56
To: program-java@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [program-java] Re: Java certification

Hi, Jim.  It used to be this way at the company I am presently employed, but 
they have pretty much phased out internal traning, and have found that 
without the credibility of a Java certification for the senior developers, 
much of the more senior work was being handled by the much more expensive 
contractors that were hired to fill in the gaps.  (Much of the time, these 
contractors did not carry the required skills themselves, and were being 
paid 25-40% more than the full timers!)  This is all very recent -- a 
transition over the past 3 or 4 years, really.  Much of it is related to the 
need for the large corporation to get the most bang out of its employee 
buck, if we are to believe the powers that be.  I think it also provides a 
baseline in terms of skillset so they are able to offload the cost of 
technical folks taking time away from project work to do interviews and 
evaluate job candidates for senior positions more generally.  After all, one 
can fake up a resume and professional references with some degree of 
confidence as the looming overhead cost in time (and therefore money) can be 
substantial if there is some doubt in the prospective employer's mind, but 
one cannot fake up the Sun certification as easily: it is either on record 
with Sun or it is not.

- Jeff





----- Original Message -----
From: "Corbett, James" <James.Corbett@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <program-java@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, August 23, 2010 4:33 PM
Subject: [program-java] Re: Java certification


Hi:

It seems as though I live in a parallel universe as it relates to the job
environment.

Where I work, the emphasis is on experience and the core skill sets that we
attain during the years of service. Its expected that a given level you must
meet the core levels but as to the specifics of whether you are a JCL / HTML
/ COBOL / Java developer those unique skill sets are part of the day to day
job and are offered to us through our education plan.

Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: program-java-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:program-java-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Fidler
Sent: August 23, 2010 16:27
To: program-java@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [program-java] Re: Java certification

Hello, Susie.  In the corporation at which I am presently employed, it is
required for senior Java developers and junior architects to have their SCJP
certification.  (I am currently studying for the SCJP myself, and also am
quite curious to learn what it may entail for a blind applicant as my
promotion to senior developer technical lead is contingent upon it!)  Also,
those with these certifications generally receive about a + $10K salary
offer when compared against those having equal work experience but without
the official Sun certifications in the local market.  The same holds true
for .NET developers in the western Pennsylvania area, too.  Those with the
official Microsoft certifications are being offered significantly higher
salaries when compared to those with equivalent experience but no
certification in the majority of cases.  I think the important thing to
discover is which certifications are meaningful and which are not.  I think
those offered by Sun, Oracle, and Microsoft, to name a few of the big ones,
carry some substantial weight.

I'll certainly share what I learn regarding the SCJP certification process.

Kind regards,
Jeff



----- Original Message -----
From: "Corbett, James" <James.Corbett@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <program-java@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, August 23, 2010 4:11 PM
Subject: [program-java] Re: Java certification


> Ok, still not worth anything. Try looking at the SUN site for these
> certification courses.... All they really are is a piece of paper that can
> be hung on the wall.
>
> If you must have the wall furniture to get ahead we can actually look at a
> particular course together. I have certification in Basic Java,
> Intermediate Java, Struts 1.3 and J2E 3.0.
>
> J.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: program-java-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:program-java-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Stanzel, Susan -
> Kansas City, MO
> Sent: August 23, 2010 15:47
> To: program-java@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [program-java] Re: Java certification
>
> I asked a friend what he has and he has a "Sun Certified Java Programmer"
> certification.
>
>
>
> Susie
>
>
>
> From: program-java-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:program-java-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Stanzel, Susan -
> Kansas City, MO
> Sent: Monday, August 23, 2010 2:42 PM
> To: program-java@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [program-java] Java certification
>
>
>
> We seem to have two threads going. To get back to my question. I am
> looking into certification. I will be working in the persistence area with
> validation and using Struts.
>
>
>
> Susie Stanzel
>
>
>

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