[ppi] [ppiindia] Pramoedya Ananta Toer Interview

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http://www.progressive.org/mag_intv1099


Pramoedya Ananta Toer Interview
By Matthew Rothschild
October 1999 Issue 

Pramoedya Ananta Toer is the preeminent novelist of Indonesia and is frequently 
mentioned as a candidate for a Nobel Prize. Born on February 1, 1925, on the 
island of Java, Pramoedya was brought up to be an Indonesian nationalist. From 
1947 to 1949, he was imprisoned by the Dutch for possessing anti-colonial 
materials. A supporter of Indonesia's first president, the nationalist and 
nonaligned leader Sukarno, Pramoedya was a marked man when General Suharto 
seized power in September 1965. On the evening of October 13, 1965, Pramoedya 
was at home editing a collection of Sukarno's short stories when the military 
came for him. He spent most of the Suharto era behind bars without trial, 
including fourteen years at the Buru Island Prison Colony. For the first few 
years there, he was held with sixteen other prisoners in isolation from the 
other inmates. 

During Suharto's thirty-three-year reign, Pramoedya's works were banned in 
Indonesia. Today he is most famous for his Buru Quartet, which he wrote from 
1969 to 1979 while imprisoned there. The quartet consists of This Earth of 
Mankind, Child of All Nations, Footsteps, and House of Glass (all republished 
in English by Penguin). The hero of the anti-colonial quartet is a journalist 
named Minke, who gradually becomes a leading voice for Indonesian independence. 
Minke narrates the first three installments of the quartet. But in the last 
one, a new narrator takes over, Minke's captor-Jacques Pangemanann, who 
arrested him for publishing an attack on the Dutch rulers. While guarding 
Minke, Pangemanann comes to admire him and sympathize with the nationalist 
movement though he still treats him with cruelty.

Toward the end of the quartet, Pangemanann and a couple of police officers 
present Minke with a release form to sign. It demands that he not get involved 
in politics or organizations. Minke spurns the request:

"What do you gentlemen mean by politics? And by organization? And what do you 
mean by 'involved'? Do you mean that I have to go and live by myself on top of 
a mountain? Everything is political! Everything needs organization. Do you 
gentlemen think that the illiterate farmers who spend their lives hoeing the 
ground are not involved in politics? The moment they surrender a part of their 
little crop to the village authorities as tax, they are carrying out a 
political act because they are acknowledging and accepting the authority of the 
government. Or do you mean by politics just those things that make the 
government unhappy? While those things that make the government happy are not 
political? And tell me, who is it that can free themselves from involvement in 
organization? As soon as you have more than two people together, you already 
have organization. . . . Even those who become hermits, who take themselves 
away into the middle of the forest or the ocean, still take with them something 
of the influence of their fellow human beings. And while there are those who 
rule and those who are ruled, those who exercise power and those who are the 
objects of that exercise of power, people will be involved in politics. While 
people live in society, no matter how small that society, people will be 
organizing." 

Pangemanann releases Minke anyway but heaps further humiliations upon him. A 
few months later, Minke dies in obscurity.

This year, Pramoedya has come out with a new book, The Mute's Soliloquy: A 
Memoir (Hyperion). In it, he provides sketches of what life was like in prison. 

"For the first few months, torture was the prisoners' constant diet," he 
writes. "I saw prisoners whose hands and legs were bound tightly being thrown 
out of trucks. I witnessed how one young man, who was being interrogated beside 
me, had pencils placed between his fingers, at their base, between the middle 
and lower knuckles. Every time the interrogator asked the boy a question, he'd 
crush the young man's fingers together, causing him to scream and moan in pain."

One surprise in the book is that Suharto wrote a letter to Pramoedya at Buru, 
and Pramoedya responded in a polite but jousting way. Both letters are 
reprinted in the text.

The longer Pramoedya stayed in prison, the more he seemed to doubt whether he 
would be able to reach anyone with his writings. "I recall someone saying, 'Let 
him holler; he'll soon wear himself out.' Now what I hear is, 'Let him be. It 
won't be long before he dies anyway.' I have lost my voice. Were I able to 
sing, would anyone hear this mute's soliloquy?"

Part of the memoir is addressed to his children, and much of it consists of 
autobiographical entries. But above all, the book continues his quest to gain 
true independence and freedom for Indonesia. Like the Nobel Prize-winners 
Naguib Mahfouz and Wole Soyinka, Pramoedya has felt the crush of disappointment 
after colonialism yielded not to democracy but to corruption and repression. 
Nonetheless, he has not given up.

"There was a time when the people of Indonesia wanted, demanded, and fought for 
national freedom," he writes. "Now that's been won, personal freedom is 
trammeled. I've often heard people say, 'Your country is beautiful, a virtual 
paradise.' When will the people of Indonesia be as beautiful as their land, 
with a civilization and culture that contributes to the great beauty of 
humankind and no longer smothers and strangles the mind?"

I spoke with Pramoedya on May 21 in Madison, where he was a guest of the 
University of Wisconsin. I was told that he rises early, keeping to the same 
schedule he had in prison, so we met at 6:30 a.m. for coffee at the Madison 
Inn, where he was staying. He came downstairs with his wife, Maimoenah Thamrin, 
and with his longtime editor, Yusuf Isak, an Indonesian journalist who had also 
served time in prison under Suharto. Dressed casually and wearing a University 
of Wisconsin cap, Pramoedya got his wife a bagel, sat down, and offered me a 
clove Djarum cigarette, the first of many over the next hour. Speaking quietly 
in Indonesian, he was careful not to aggrandize his prison experience. And he 
showed an almost blasé attitude toward his Buru Quartet, laughing when he 
appeared not to recognize his own words. When we were through with the 
interview, he asked for a tour of The Progressive magazine, which I was more 
than happy to give. 

Q: In This Earth of Mankind, one of your characters says, "Without a love of 
literature, you'll remain just a lot of clever animals." Where did your love of 
literature come from?

Pramoedya Ananta Toer: I couldn't do anything else, apart from writing.

Q: Ever since you were a boy?

Pramoedya: At first I had no inclination to write. But I failed in trying to do 
other jobs, so I decided to become a writer.

Q: How did you manage to write your quartet while in prison?

Pramoedya: Before I got permission, I had to do it behind their backs. For a 
long time, I was not permitted to write, so I had to do it orally. From 1971 
until mid-1973, we were not allowed to socialize with the others. During mass 
executions of political prisoners, in the isolation cell I told the stories to 
my friends. During official ceremonies, my fellow isolated friends told the 
stories to other friends who were not being isolated, and that's how they were 
spread.

Q: How did you convey such a long and involved story orally?

Pramoedya: Only the general outlines were orally transmitted. The details had 
to be written down later, when paper was available. 

Q: Tell me about your time in prison and the treatment you received.

Pramoedya: Practically everyone has their own scars due to torture. 

Q: What conclusion did you draw from the sadism of the guards about human 
beings in general?

Pramoedya: I saw how low culture and civilization could go. In Indonesia, the 
guards torture people in order to feel mighty and feared. They are happy if 
people are scared of them. 

Q: Your latest work, The Mute's Soliloquy, is a collection of your writings and 
reflections in the Buru prison. It's not a novel at all. What were you 
intending to do with this?

Pramoedya: The book was for my children so that they would know they once had a 
father. Because on Buru, you have to be prepared to be executed at any time. I 
knew that the quartet would be smuggled out; it was intended to be read by the 
public. But this one was not; it was private.

Q: You write in The Mute's Soliloquy that your imprisonment was "a consequence 
of nation-building." What did you mean by that?

Pramoedya: The army imprisoned me because I was actively involved in the 
process of nation-building. I write my books to make the nation as one. I write 
using the Indonesian language because that language is a bond that unites us. I 
don't use my mother tongue, the Javanese language. Indonesia is comprised of 
many ethnic and sub-ethnic groups. It has to be built into one nation.

Q: In a sense, your anti-colonial quartet is a chronicle of nation-building, 
isn't it?

Pramoedya: The spirit is anti-colonial because I was socialized from childhood 
to be anti-colonial.

Q: Your dad was a nationalist?

Pramoedya: Yes, a non-cooperator. There were cooperators and non-cooperators. 
It has to be emphasized here: He was a non-cooperator.

Q: Did he encourage you to become a writer?

Pramoedya: My father practically never spoke with his children.

Q: So how did you pick up his anti-colonial attitude?

Pramoedya: By example. 

Q: What about your mother?

Pramoedya: Since childhood I was taught by my mother to be a free person. Not 
ordering others around, and also not being ordered around by others. That was 
how my mother socialized us. My mind has been free since childhood. I create 
freedom for myself.

Q: Minke, the hero of your quartet, is a journalist, and you, for a time, were 
a journalist, too. Did you become a journalist as a way to fight for Indonesian 
independence?

Pramoedya: No, when I was a teenager, I had to find a job. And journalism was 
the one open to me.

Q: But you soon began to realize the power of the word?

Pramoedya: Yes, the power of the word. Even though no one admits it, writers 
are leaders in their communities. And Indonesia, especially, needs writers who 
can reach the people evenly, regardless of class or station.

Q: But you have a character in your quartet warn Minke "to be a writer, and not 
a speechmaker." Are you making the point that speechifying gets in the way of 
art?

Pramoedya: I chose to write, and not to make speeches, though I did make some 
speeches before I was imprisoned. But writing is still writing. And it depends 
on the quality of the writing itself whether someone is creating art or not.

Q: In Child of All Nations, Minke's mentor also says, "A good author, Mr. 
Minke, should be able to provide his readers with some joy, not a false joy, 
but some faith that life is beautiful." What did you mean by that?

Pramoedya: I don't know; I never reread my own writing.

Q: Why is that?

Pramoedya: If I reread it, I'll keep rewriting it, and it'll never be finished.

Q: But were you advising yourself to provide joy in your own writing?

Pramoedya: No, no. This is about Minke; it is different for myself.

Q: But surely as a writer, you must think it's important to provide some joy, 
some faith?

Pramoedya: I don't write to give joy to readers but to give them a conscience.

Q: Do you think writers who try to give joy are spreading false hope?

Pramoedya: I don't have the right to judge those who write to give joy, but 
it's a struggle to give conscience and not joy.

Q: I've got to ask you the obvious question about your quartet: Why did you 
remove Minke as the narrator of your fourth installment, House of Glass, just 
as he enters confinement?

Pramoedya: Because, practically, Minke's life story has already finished. The 
fourth book is about how power defeats Minke-colonial power. His life doesn't 
continue. If there is a continuation, then the continuation is with the history 
of independence. And that process of continuation is in the hands of others.

Q: Near the end of House of Glass, Minke's guard writes up a release form for 
him to sign, which says that Minke forswears future involvement in politics and 
organizing. Minke rejects the offer with an eloquent speech. Is this scene at 
all autobiographical?

Pramoedya: With me, I did sign it. But in the letter of release it mentioned 
that it was not legally proven that I was involved in the Indonesian Communist 
Party.

Q: Your quartet centered on the quest for independence. But since 1945, 
Indonesian independence cannot have turned out as you imagined. What happened?

Pramoedya: I had idealism when I was young, but in reality the interference 
from abroad has been too much.

Q: From the West?

Pramoedya: Yes, and from multinational corporations. Eisenhower wanted to 
overthrow Sukarno; there is a document about it. Sukarno wanted to turn 
Indonesia into an independent country, not one ordered around by any 
superpower. But the United States wanted Indonesia to become the playing field 
for multinationals. Sukarno didn't want that. He was loved by the people, and 
that was why it wasn't that easy to murder him. He survived seven assassination 
attempts. So the United States cooperated with a wing of the army that was 
favoring the West and the multinationals. Great Britain played the most 
important role in overthrowing Sukarno, but the United States was giving 
weapons and providing a list of people's names who had to be murdered. The list 
was from the U.S. embassy.

Q: You write that we're in "The Age of Capital" or "The Age of the Triumph of 
Capital." How long is it going to last, do you think?

Pramoedya: Now is the absolute victory of the multinationals. Now, in reality, 
the whole of the Third World hopes for the aid of capital. Even the 
still-existing communist countries have started to accommodate capitalism.

Q: But what's their alternative?

Pramoedya: There is an alternative. That's what Sukarno taught. Do not invite 
capitalism, but if you want to develop, it's OK to borrow money. I'm against 
capitalism but not capital.

Q: Are you optimistic about democracy in Indonesia?

Pramoedya: I am optimistic. Why? Because Indonesia has the young generation, 
who are still in the process of forming their own identities. They are 
activists. They are more educated than their parents, and their hearts are 
pure. 

Q: In one of your prison notes in The Mute's Soliloquy, you wrote that you 
wanted to live long enough to see the end of Suharto's New Order. Were you 
surprised when he was forced out on May 21, 1998?

Pramoedya: When Suharto stepped down, many reporters came to me, wanting to 
write about my happiness at his fall. I said, "This is just a comedy." He's 
using other hands and other faces. He transferred the presidency to Habibie. 
How is it possible that a president can appoint a president?

Q: Do you support Sukarno's daughter Megawati, the leader of the main 
opposition party?

Pramoedya: I have many problems with her. How could she have played a role as a 
member of Suharto's parliament after he killed two million of her father's 
supporters? And as a member of parliament, she never raised the issue of those 
massacres, she never raised the issue of people who were robbed of their 
rights, such as myself. Never. She was among Suharto's yes-men.

Q: Minke, in This Earth of Mankind, says, "Maybe one day I could become a great 
writer like Hugo." Now you are like an Indonesian Hugo. Are you comfortable in 
that role?

Pramoedya: I feel I am in the place that I have chosen for myself my whole 
life. I feel it's more appropriate for me to be where I am today than to be a 
member of parliament or a minister or president.

Q: You're often mentioned as someone who is likely to win the Nobel Prize for 
literature. Is that important to you?
Pramoedya: Every award for me is important because it means a slap against 
militarism and fascism in Indonesia.

Matthew Rothschild is the Editor of The Progressive magazine. Translation was 
provided by Katie Greene and Francisia Seda.

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