[pchelpers] Re: [Fwd: Re: IE is Mozilla?]

Hi Linz

I hope your acquaintance Darrell is not close to you because i
didn't want to offend you by saying what i think about him. You
didn't answer my question whether you got his original comment
privately or in a public forum. In case you do need to continue
conversing with him about his ridiculous claims, this is probably
enough info for you:

Basically he is claiming completely nonsensical things without
even a shred of proof and then demanding that others produce
evidence to disprove his nonsense. (And then insulting them when
he can't convince with real arguments - the non-housetrained
parts of his message are deleted below to enable quoting on
Pchelpers.)

Since he seems to be unwilling to read or incapable of 
understanding http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla, tell him to 
try and prove his wild claims to true experts on a Mozilla forum
(http://forums.mozillazine.org) since he thinks he has the
right to be condescending towards you and me (and to spout
nonsense that even a non-techie can easily spot) just because he
*maybe* has more experience with computers and programming (not
that this has apparently amounted to any understanding of even
basics of IT...)

Ek


PS
In case you, Linz, or others on Pchelpers want more info on the 
relationship between different browsers, here's a summary of the 
Wikipedia article and other info esp. in relation to Darrell's 
wild claims:

IE is and Netscape until recently was proprietary software.
Netscape would have sued MS if IE had used Netscape code. Both 
the Mozilla Suite and Firefox were completely rewritten from
scratch even though the Mozilla Suite was originally based on 
Netscape*. Both the Mozilla Suite and Mozilla Firefox are open
source projects, and MS would have sued the Mozilla Foundation if
they were using any of IE's code.

Netscape has dropped its original browser and recently started 
marketing a repackaged version of the Mozilla Suite - which is a 
completely different product* compared to the original Netscape - 
which anyone can do; even MS could use Mozilla's suite or Firefox 
and repackage it as IE if it wanted to, but MS would have to give 
credit to Mozilla.

(*Ultimately, the Mozilla core developers concluded that the old
code could not be salvaged. They decided to scrap the whole code
base and rewrite it from the ground up, which caused one of the
lead Netscape developers, Jamie Zawinski, to resign.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla)

Just because IE identifies itself as i.e. "calls itself" Mozilla 
when accessing a website, doesn't mean it's the same as Mozilla. 
The reason IE claims to be Mozilla is because Mozilla was and is 
the codename for Netscape and because Netscape used to be the 
dominant browser and because back then some websites didn't open 
correctly or at all if they "thought" they weren't being accessed 
by Netscape. Opera also enables its users to send out a fake 
browser identification string when accessing websites that think 
they should refuse access by any other browser than IE.

Apparently Darrell purposely or sloppily confused the three
different organisations and browsers called Mosaic and Spyglass
Mosaic (which became IE) and the Mosaic Communications
Corporation (=Netscape) and in addition erroneously equated the
latter's browser ("due" to its code name Mozilla) with the
Mozilla Suite, in other words, also misunderstood the facts 
described here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosaic_%28browser%29
(relevant quote in PPS)

In any case, if Darrell were really a programmer, he would be
able to see and not only deduce the complete difference in code
between the Mozilla Suite (and Mozilla Firefox) and Netscape 
(until recently*) and IE.

So, Linz, i think you can be sure that any other claims he might
make about programming or technology or anything else, in fact,
are probably as fictitious. To help you in future spot and ignore
these kind of aggressive and clueless males rampant in the
Internet, remember these easy tips:

In addition to not knowing how to spell common English words,
they often show that they don't really understand even basic
technical terms by misspelling them too (e.g. MoZZilla). A lack
of spelling skills is of course only a hint of a lack of basic
education because many educated and highly intelligent people are
dyslexic or non-native speakers or have other good reasons
besides ignorance for not knowing how to spell (but then they
make different mistakes than Darrell does.)

An even better giveaway are logical, grammar, syntax, and lexical
(wrong-word) errors ("You and I have been do this for a every
long time.")

The best giveaway is their lack of basic civility though. If
enough normal people would stop letting themselves be awed by
claimed superiority in technological knowledge by condescending
quacks purposely speaking geekese, everyone could benefit from 
the ICT age. A truly knowledgeable person in any field is never 
condescending and can usually explain things so normal people can 
understand.

Aggressiveness and condescension are a front put up by many geeks 
(many of which are physically and emotionally sick due to lack of 
sunshine and social interaction) because they're afraid of being 
identified as quacks and poorly educated even in the one field
they claim to know something about.

A lack of humor is also usually a good sign of lack of
intelligence or mental health or at least of being a fanatic or 
too full of oneself. It's probably senseless trying to explain to 
Darrell where my list of claimed deductions about him and the
degree of credibility of his original posting turned from fact to
fiction to introduce at least some air and light into the
stifling, condescending, and aggressive atmosphere created by the
quote in the original posting...


PPS:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosaic_%28browser%29
...despite persistent rumors to the contrary, Mosaic was never
released as open source software during its brief reign as a
major browser; there were always constraints on permissible uses
without payment.

The leader of the team that developed it, Marc Andreessen left
NCSA with Jim Clark, one of the founders of Silicon Graphics,
Inc. (SGI) along with four other former students and staff of the
University of Illinois and started Mosaic Communications
Corporation which became Netscape Communications Corporation,
producing Netscape Navigator.

Spyglass, Inc. licensed the technology and trademarks from NCSA
for producing their own web browser but never used any of the
NCSA Mosaic source code. Spyglass Mosaic was later licensed by
Microsoft, and it was modified and renamed Internet Explorer.


Darrell Roberts wrote:
> Get a life... I've done this for pushing on 25 years now... I know what 
> Im on about.  As a programmer, therefore you know what you just said 
> completes my statement that IE, Netscape and basically any Browser is 
> Mozzilla... What a plonker you just won my XXX of the year prize.   
> As for the english statements,.... I never said I was good at it.. And 
> where is your break down on my you plonker... If you are going to make 
> stupid statements back them up with something!!
> 

>  >From: "Ekhart GEORGI (last name last)" <Ekhart.GEORGI@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>  >To: pchelpers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>  >CC: Darrell Roberts <djrmkr@xxxxxxxxxxx>,  judenlinz@xxxxxxxxxx
>  >Subject: Re: [Fwd: [pchelpers] Re: IE is Mozilla?]
>  >Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 12:13:32 +0200
>  >
>  >Happy holidays and seasons greetings, everyone.
>  >
>  >I'll be gone for a few days. If anyone wants to bother explaining to
>  >Linz's acquaintance quoted below why he is technologically
>  >completely clueless in his claims about "Mozilla is the component in
>  >the background that runs IE" and other nonsense, go right ahead. It
>  >seems he doesn't even know basics that are even in Wikipedia
>  >articles on Mozilla/IE/Netscape.
>  >
>  >He apparently doesn't know that for historical reasons Netscape had
>  >and still has the code name Mozilla in its browser identification
>  >string (which normal users never see) and that because Netscape used
>  >to be the dominant browser, IE also "calls itself" i.e. identifies
>  >itself as Mozilla when it accesses an Internet page (but the normal
>  >user doesn't know or see that and the wannabe geek like Linz's
>  >acquaintance jumps to incorrect conclusions that are the opposite of
>  >reality)

>  >
>  >It seems to be hopeless to make him understand basics of English
>  >communication or understand his incoherent babbling about English
>  >language issues; let's be happy if we get him to understand at least
>  >the technical aspects of the issue he "raised"...
>  >
>  >Ek

>  >
>  >
>  >Darrell Roberts wrote:
>  >>Hmmm, interesting, *he/she* didn't tell you anything.... Or so it
>  >>seems, he/she just dodged the answer very nicely but said
>  >>nothing... Typical for a person new to PC's, "no nothing" but
>  >>pretends to "know all".
>  >>
>  >>You and I have been do this for a every long time.  Mozilla is the
>  >>component in the background that runs IE.  And the protocols it
>  >>talks are Mozzilla.  Infact when you check a microsoft proxy log it
>  >>will even say which version of Mozzilla it is actually using.
>  >>
>  >>Obviously the person that wrote those comments doesn't have the
>  >>first clue about coding "in the real sense", just another "want to
>  >>be"
>  >>
>  >>The reason for the English translation of "no" and I have used it
>  >>before, it comes from the text language.  So I can only guess that
>  >>the person that wrote these comments doesnt know technology from a
>  >>bar of soap.  As for the other comments,... I'd love for him/her to
>  >>tell me what my gender, job, background and age are.... That should
>  >>be good for a laugh... I got told I wasn't 18 the other day.... So
>  >>this person better be good at what they think they know by a few
>  >>statements.





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