[ossrp-control] Re: What Is A Screen Reader?

MessageI'll be glad to give a better example.  However, I think someone else 
gave the same idea earlier.  If you have a list of cities within a list of 
states within in a certain country.  If you wish to have a printout of this 
list of cities only for 1 or 2 states only and you don't have all the data in 
the same area then you won't receive all your information in the order 
requested.  I hope this gives a better idea for you.
Your Friend
Dave

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jamal Mazrui 
  To: ossrp-control@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 9:28 AM
  Subject: [ossrp-control] Re: What Is A Screen Reader?


  Hi David,
  Can you laborate on your example?  I'm not understanding it.  

  My initial impression is one of a different example than what I described, so 
what I said may still be valid.  I was not claiming that layout is always 
irrelevant to a blind user, just that it can be sometimes, thereby suggesting 
that we distinguish between functional and irrelevant visual information from 
the perspective of a screen reader user.

  Regards,
  Jamal

   -----Original Message-----
  From: ossrp-control-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:ossrp-control-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of David Grossoehme
  Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 9:28 PM
  To: ossrp-control@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  Subject: [ossrp-control] Re: What Is A Screen Reader?


  Hi:  I felt I had to put my 2 cents in here.  You say you don't care where 
data is placed.  That's fine as long as you are dealing with one item of data.  
You example was a city.  If you wish to receive a list of all the cities and 
that are suppose to be in a certain place and not all of them are in that area 
you aren't going to receive all the data, of which might one reason to have the 
proper placement in the example.
  Your Friend
  dave

    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Jamal Mazrui 
    To: ossrp-control@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
    Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 2:21 PM
    Subject: [ossrp-control] Re: What Is A Screen Reader?


    Hi Will,
    I agree that spatial relationships can and do convey a lot of information 
to sighted users.  I was not arguing that visual placement is generally 
irrelevant, but maintain that it can be so for blind users where it does not 
affect the interface we experience and the functionality of the task at hand.  

    For example, if the purpose of a dialog is to retrieve typical contact 
information (name, address, phone, etc.) through a well-understood set of 
fields, then it may be irrelevant to the blind user where the controls are 
placed, as long as they speak properly.  The layout of the dialog is not an end 
in itself, but a means to an end, that of gathering the data for a contact 
record.  The database does not care, and does not track, where the controls 
were placed in the input dialog that gathered the data for the record that was 
saved.

    To elaborate, I might press tab successively hearing fields like "First 
name", "last name," etc., filling each one in, including reviewing the data in 
each edit box.  If the tab order is logical and the field name and current 
value speak as expected, than it does not matter to me how the fields are 
aligned, what fonts are used for field names, what point size the entered 
characters are, etc.

    Sighted users, on the other hand, are affected by such characteristics.  
Even if the tab order is the same, logical sequence, they will be confused if 
the "City" field is placed above the "First Name" field.  If a few fields are 
cramped together in one corner of the dialog in an unpleasing manner 
aesthetically, their productivity will be reduced because of the disorientation 
they experience, etc.

    Jamal

     -----Original Message-----
    From: ossrp-control-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:ossrp-control-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Will Pearson
    Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 4:25 PM
    To: ossrp-control@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    Subject: [ossrp-control] Re: What Is A Screen Reader?


    Hi Jamal,

    "As a blind user, placement
    can actually be irrelevant, having  no effect on functionality."

    Based on psychology, semiotics and communications theory, I would have to 
disagree with that statement.  A control's relationship to other controls and 
it's absolute positioning can be sources of semantic information about that 
control's functionality.  For example. buttons grouped together may have 
similar functionality, buttons placed next to a list box may perform an action 
on that list box or it's selected index.  On the web, a row of links placed in 
vertical alignment at the top of a page are often used as a quick navigational 
group of links.

    So. spatial relationships and absolute positioning can add a lot of meaning 
regarding functionality beyond that conveyed by a simple text label.  Users 
can, and often do, work out the full semantic nature of a control, but this is 
often through trying out the control and seeing what it does, which is 
inefficient at best, and possibly disasterous at worst, imagine deleting 
something that you didn't actually mean to delete.

    Will
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Jamal Mazrui 
      To: ossrp-control@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
      Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 2:41 PM
      Subject: [ossrp-control] Re: What Is A Screen Reader?


      Just an observation to share.

      In trying to program dialog boxes under Windows, I have experienced the 
situation where something I developed worked well with a screen reader, yet I 
subsequently discovered that it was almost unusable for a sighted person.  A 
screen reader can tab from one control to another, and as long as each control 
is properly labeled and otherwise voicing as one would expect at the time it 
has focus, then the controls in the dialog serve their purpose.  It may be the 
case, however, that the controls are placed in visually peculiar, unbalanced, 
or overlapping places on the screen, thus making the dialog difficult for a 
sighted user.

      As a blind developer, I need to know the location of controls so that I 
can meet the needs of both sighted and blind users.  As a blind user, placement 
can actually be irrelevant, having  no effect on functionality.

      Regards,
      Jamal
      -----Original Message-----
      From: ossrp-control-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:ossrp-control-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Lyn Eagers
      Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 11:19 PM
      To: ossrp-control@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
      Subject: [ossrp-control] Re: What Is A Screen Reader?


      Hi Will and Others,

      Will, I found your description of what a screen reader is quite 
interesting.  

      I train people to use screen readers and, from my experience, some blind 
folk are interested in where things are on the screen (spacial perception) and 
others are not.  In particular, those who have had sight and were extremely 
visual people find it important to know where things are.  Some, and I say 
some, so therefore not all, long term blind people don't seem to be interested 
in the spacial factor.

      I am a long term blind person and have always tried to grasp a mental 
picture of what is on the screen and where - probably because I teach both 
kinds of blind people and sometimes assist sighted folk.

      Anyhow, I thought I'd share my experiences with you.

      Cheers,
      Lyn

      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Will Pearson 
      To: ossrp-control@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ; uvip@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
      Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 11:58 AM
      Subject: [ossrp-control] What Is A Screen Reader?


      Hi,

      I thought I'd share my, rather academic, view of what a screen reader is. 
 It offers a little glimmer into what screen readers could potentially do, and 
some of the pitfalls that the current crop of screen readers have fallen into.  
All this is from the viewpoint of human computer interaction, psychology and 
communications theory.

      OK.  So, what is a screen reader?  Well, it's actually a lot more than 
people often assume it is.  It's not just something that grabs the text from 
the screen and reads it to you, well, at least it shouldn't be, it is in fact 
the interface by which user and machine communicate semantic meaning, relating 
to thoughts, concepts, actions and states.

      So, how did I arrive at this view?  As some of you may know, I've been 
researching into semantics and their role in software interfaces for a while 
now.  During this time, it's become apparent that software interfaces are just 
intended to communicate semantic meaning, but as we're not capable of extr 
sensory perception and telepathy with the computer, we need some way to 
indicate our thoughts, concepts, actions, etc. to the computer, and vice versa. 
 The way this is visually done is by placing elements on the screen, such as 
icons, buttons, etc. and having their shape, colour, position on screen and 
relationships to one another act as encoding channels by which the semantic 
meaning is conveyed.  Users then just point to an object, conveying the 
semantics of which element they would like to interact with, and either click 
it or select an action to perform on it from a menu.  All this is just a form 
of physical encoding of the semantic meaning between user and machine and vice 
versa.

      So, as a screen reader is a replacement for the visual interface, it's 
role is simply to act as an interface between user and machine and convey the 
semantic meaning generated by the machine.  However, there's a nasty twist, and 
that is that a screen reader has to get the semantic meaning that it is to 
communicate to the user from somewhere.  As the screen reader has no access to 
the internals of the machine, it's only available source of semantics that the 
machine wishes to convey is the visual interface, which uses encoding 
techniques such as colour, shape, position and spatial relationship to convey 
it's semantics.  So, a screen reader should really be about extracting the 
semantics from the visual display and encoding them in a non-visual form 
suitable for a blind user, and this is where current screen readers fall down.  
To maintain accurate and efficient communication with the user, all the 
semantics that are conveyed visually need to be conveyed to the user.  This 
includes things like spatial positioning and spatial relationships between 
interface elements, things that are currently lost to the user when they are 
using one of the current screen readers.  If this were to happen, then the 
number of errors, and according back-tracks and reissuing of commands that go 
along with errors, would decrease, and screen reader users would be more 
efficient beasts.

      I haven't gone into design specifics, as they're for another day, and 
these can dramatically affect efficiency as well, but that's my thoughts of 
what a screen reader should be doing.  In focusing on the semantics, then it's 
likely that through the use of semantic translation access to all those 
difficult accessibility problems could be increased.

      Will


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