[ossrp-control] Re: What Is A Screen Reader?

Hi Jerry,

This introduces another bug-bear of mine. <grin>  Does improving equality
and efficiency of use for blind people, necessarily mean encouraging blind
users to be as messy and uncoordinated about how they use windows as sighted
people?

If you can perform a task without having multiple windows open, then that
should encouraged, rather than allow someone to make their UI more and more
confusing, and then trying to get them to make sense of it.

Again, I think it's important to avoid the idea that because sighted people
do things a certain way, that blind people necessarily need to do it that
way to.

For instance, copying something from one window to another can be done quite
often simply by copying an object to the clipboard, switching windows, and
then pasting it again.   Speed-wise, I suspect this is barely slower than
dragging and dropping.  And of course, ideally, it would be even faster if
you could right click that object, and then from a context menu, simply
indicate the window you want it put in.

All the best,

David


-----Original Message-----
From: ossrp-control-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ossrp-control-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
gerald.g.weichbrodt@xxxxxx
Sent: 05 May 2005 08:07
To: ossrp-control@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [ossrp-control] Re: What Is A Screen Reader?



Some of the best uses of drag-and-drop involve moving stuff between windows,
and when one window can obscure another, techniques like the JAWS
drag-and-drop become dicey.

I think the tasks of a new screen reader will involve as much knowing what
not to convey to the user as knowing what to convey.  That Windows screen
can really become a cluttered mess.

Regards,
Jerry


 

                      "Jamal Mazrui"

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[ossrp-control] Re: What Is A Screen Reader?

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I have also found drag-and-drop to be unreliable and inneficient, even with
the JAWS hot keys for this.  I think the same functionality can usually be
provided through well-designed wizards.

Regards,
Jamal

-----Original Message-----
From: ossrp-control-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ossrp-control-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Peter Parente
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 7:01 PM
To: ossrp-control@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [ossrp-control] Re: What Is A Screen Reader?


Hi Laura,

It's interesting to hear that you find drag and drop easy in audio. If it
works well for you, that's great.

All I'm suggesting is that there may be a better way to achieve the same

effect as drag and drop in audio. As far as I know (and correct me someone
if I'm wrong) nobody has really looked into the alternatives. Drag and drop
was "invented" for visual displays. Is there an equivalent

or more powerful metaphor for audio?

What if you have to go to work at a new company and are unfamiliar with
where the icons are located on the desktop. The first time you use drag and
drop, you have to explore their spatial relationships. But why should you
need to do that? All you really want to do is be able to associate one
object with another and not worry about switching cursors and moving them in
certain directions. Perhaps there's a way to easy the

learning.

There is also room for improvement from an information theory point of view.
The key presses needed to switch cursor modes and the time needed to move
one object to another are not critical to the task of associating object and
action. By eliminating them, or reducing the time

it takes to perform them, you'd have a better interface, purely from an
efficiency standpoint.

Pete

Laura Eaves wrote:

>I don't know what the difficulty is with drag and drop -- actually it
is not
>hard to do this with jaws -- just switch to the jaws or mouse cursor
and
>lock it and then navigate over to the destination and unlock and the
object
>is deposited.  I have done it many times.
>
>But as for spatial relationships, i am wondering if there would be an
easy
>way to specify relative location on the screen audibly -- such as
having the
>screen reader put an invisible grid on the screen and give grid
coordinates
>of an object.
>Having come from having partial vision to having almost none, I for one
miss
>seeing spatial relationships.  I think it would be a plus for the user
if
>some kind of spatial info were given by the screen reader to the user. 
>Obviously for many apps it is not important to know spatial layout --
and
>indeed when i learned windows with jaws (at the same time) 6 years ago,
I
>had no idea where anything was spatially and wished I had.
>And spatial relationship is not purely a visual attribute -- it is also

>tactile -- and in fact I sometimes find myself moving my hands around
to get
>an idea of what I am doing when on the computer or solving a math
problem
>(math was my major in college) and indeed my vision even when I could
read
>was limited to a very small field so I only saw a small part of what I
was
>doing.  But that didn't mean I couldn't "visualize" it in my mind.
>
>If the spatial info were supplied somehow by a screen reader I think
more
>people would use it and soon find it very useful, if not essential.  I
am
>aware that persons who have been blind all their lives have the feeling
that
>since they have never needed it it somehow isn't necessary.  Well, of
course
>they can live without it, but if the info is available I think they
would
>indeed like it!
>
>Just some thoughts.  Feel free to shoot holes in my conjectures. --le
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <bryan_dufelmeier@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>To: <ossrp-control@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 5:39 PM
>Subject: [ossrp-control] Re: What Is A Screen Reader?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Well sometimes mapping these relationships would work quite well and
other
>times not at all.  Drag and drop is a good examaple of when not to use
this
>approach.  The progblem there is that mapping an action while it's
being
>performed is simply too much information for the average user to
process
>without an unduly amount of practice.  However, I remember having a
program
>several years ago in dos when I was using the versabraille.  Now the 
>program used something called exploding windows which was an effect 
>visually created when a new window was opened.  The versabraille is not
an
>audio device but you could hear when a new window opened because the 
>braille dots zipped across the screen in an obvious way.  The effect
was
>tactile if your hands happened to be in position as well.  Audio
effects
>and icons could be very useful in conveying all sorts of information. 
>Sometimes spoken clues and explantions will be necessary and sometimes
as
>with drag and drop the action itself would be made more difficult by
going
>overboard on the audio.  Doing an audio mapping for drag and drop may
be
>useful in a tutorial about windows for explaiing the concept but not in 
>actual screen reader operation.  Just some comments for the road.
>
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>
>
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