[ossrp-control] Re: Member Intro, Feature Suggestions and Questions




Even though I am lothed to learn it ... since the initial project is on
LongHorn, something that can reach into the app space is probably most
appropriate ... e.g., C#.
jjavascript is hardly an OO language.
Matt King
Accessibility End User Advocate
IBM Enterprise Services/Corporate Accessibility CoC
Phone: (719) 520-3006, Tie line: 8-656-3006
Internet: mattking@xxxxxxxxxx
IBM Internal Accessibility Tools:
http://w3.ibm.com/tools/it/ittools.nsf/main/pwd_PWDResources.htm
IBM Internal Accessibility Transformation Home:
http://w3.ibm.com/transform/cio.nsf/main/pwd_main.htm
IBM Accessibility Center: http://www.ibm.com/able



                                                                       
             "Rich Caloggero"                                          
             <rjc@xxxxxxx>                                             
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                                                                   Subject
             05/31/2005 11:46          [ossrp-control] Re: Member Intro,
             AM                        Feature Suggestions and Questions
                                                                       
                                                                       
             Please respond to                                         
               ossrp-control                                           
                                                                       
                                                                       




Oh my god, not Python! It depends on indentation to write; yet another
incredible mishmash of presentation and semantics! Perhaps the indented
form
of Python could be a shorthand, meant for easy coding, but the true
language
should not be tied to presentation.

My preference for a scripting language would be JavaScript. I'm sure people
will groan over that too, so lets here it!

Sorry for my ignorance, but what is Clique?

-- Rich

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Parente" <parente@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: <ossrp-control@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 1:40 PM
Subject: [ossrp-control] Re: Member Intro, Feature Suggestions and
Questions


Using an existing language for "scripting" a screen reader can not only
improve what the screen reader can do, but can also increase the chances
of getting scripts written. For instance, if JAWS were scriptable with a
language like Python, anyone familiar with Python already could write a
JAWS script after learning the JAWS API--not the API plus an entirely new
programming language. I'm guessing more people know a language like Python
than the JAWS scripting language.

Also, consider the situation where company XYZ has some application used
internally that needs to be scripted so JAWS users can access it. The
company isn't likely to spend money training someone in the single-purpose
JAWS scripting language because the training is too specialized and isn't
likely to be put to use very often. But if JAWS were scriptable in a
multipurpose language that could find uses outside of screen reader
scripting, the cost of training could be justified more easily--what is
learned about Python can be applied elsewhere.

And I'm only using Python as an example because it's what Clique uses for
scripts. Insert the name of any general purpose language you'd like and
I'm sure the above still makes sense.

Pete

On Tue, 31 May 2005 13:19:44 -0400, Rich Caloggero <rjc@xxxxxxx> wrote:

> Very well articulated. I agree with every word.
> Thanx Matt.
>
> I believe that the Macintosh folks might also fall into the category of
> trying to create an accessibility add-on (VoiceOver) which tries to make
> the
> blind experience of computing "as similar to that of their sighted peers
> as
> possible". I don't think this is what is needed from a tool such as a
> screen
> reader. In fact, what is needed is a toolbox which can be customized for
> our
> own needs, easily and effectively.
>
> Jaws, with its scripting language, is perhaps the closest thing to this
> at
> the moment.  However, their scripting language lacks much which is
> common in
> programming languages found today (like arrays of any kind, objects, and
> functions which behave as they should. Objects can be referenced but not
> defined. Functions have a weird behavior: they don't recurse; when you
> call
> a function from within itself, it calls back to the last different
> function
> defined with that name.
>
>
> -- Cheers, Rich
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Matthew King" <mattking@xxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <ossrp-control@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 12:44 PM
> Subject: [ossrp-control] Re: Member Intro, Feature Suggestions and
> Questions
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Veli,
>
> With all due respect, I think your "minimalist" ideas at:
> http://www.student.oulu.fi/~vtatila/free_screen_reader.html
> are too minimalist, not realistic,  and are counter productive.
>
> For instance, rationalizing the exclusion of a feature because it is "too
> different" from how a sighted person uses a computer seems baseless. The
> same logic would say that using an audio interface to a visually oriented
> system at all is "too different." The reality is that the very idea of a
> screen reader, verses a computing platform designed from the ground-up as
> an audio-interface computing platform, begs for accomodations to mitigate
> the lack of efficiency inherent in bolt-on accessibility. Without such
> mitigating accomodations, the audio-interface or tactile-interface user
> will be left in the dust by his or her sighted peers.
>
> Matt King
> Accessibility End User Advocate
> IBM Enterprise Services/Corporate Accessibility CoC
> Phone: (719) 520-3006, Tie line: 8-656-3006
> Internet: mattking@xxxxxxxxxx
> IBM Internal Accessibility Tools:
> http://w3.ibm.com/tools/it/ittools.nsf/main/pwd_PWDResources.htm
> IBM Internal Accessibility Transformation Home:
> http://w3.ibm.com/transform/cio.nsf/main/pwd_main.htm
> IBM Accessibility Center: http://www.ibm.com/able
>
>
>
>
>              Veli-Pekka Tätilä
>              <vtatila@xxxxxxxx
>              dent.oulu.fi>
> To
>              Sent by:                  <ossrp-control@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>              ossrp-control-bou
> cc
>              nce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
Subject
>                                        [ossrp-control] Member Intro,
>              05/28/2005 07:54          Feature Suggestions and Questions
>              AM
>
>
>              Please respond to
>                ossrp-control
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi list,
> I thought I'd introduce myself and ask a couple of questions about the
> screen reader.
>
> I'm a 21-year-old sight immpaired FInnish guy and a lot into computers. I
> do
> have a little sight left on my left eye: enough to use magnification but
> not
> so much to be able to abandon screen reading completely. I prefer speech,
> braille and the screen as output media in this order. FOr more info on my
> sight, check out this Web-page:
>
> http://www.student.oulu.fi/~vtatila/sight.html
>
> As to development work I know C plus plus and Java at some level and have
> done courses on software architectures
> and object oriented design. Additionally, I'm naturaly into usability and
> accessibility. In addition to human computer interaction basics and some
> GUi
> design, I did beta test the screen reader for MacOs X 10.4 and am
> currently
> beta testing Dolphin screen reading products.
>
> My first question is whether it is possible to create plug-ins for the
> screen reader or if there's some other extension mechanism for this
> purpose?
> A plug-in based approach would promote customizability or even
> alternative
> solutions to problems, in addition to enabling one to say emulate
> existing
> screen readers.
>
> I'd like to experiment with some ideas of my own or those that have been
> proposed elswhere. Some examples:
>
> a. I read in CSUN about conveying the current screen position with
> surround
> sound. That would be great and I could actually try it out as I do have a
> 10x10 professional sound card for music and audio work. I think you
> should
> arrange the speakers a litle unconventionally around the monitor, though,
> such that moving up would mean up soundwise, too.
>
> b. An optional redundancy filter could help in streamlining screen
> prompts.
> That is it could compare the current and previous output and if there
> were
> similar pieces, remove them possibly notifying the user. This way the
> problems of file names, progress indicators or any other prompt text that
> is
> at least partially redundant could be mostly eliminated.
>
> c. Though this is only my personal take on things, I've got a very
> specific
> idea of how a screen reader should work overall and why. I call it the
> screen reading philosophy and have a whole page dealing with it as well
> as
> with the feature suggestions at:
>
> http://www.student.oulu.fi/~vtatila/free_screen_reader.html
>
> Based on this page, any ideas as to what kind of philosophy the screen
> reader will have? Many of the more minimalist ones like Narrator,
> Gnopernicus or VoiceOver seem to be close to what I'd like. In brief, my
> screen reading philosophy is that the screen reader should not change how
> the computer is operated unless that's absolutely necessary. Most of the
> things I'm listing on the page stem from this basic rule.
>
> Finally, is it possible for a sight impaired person to do Longhorn
> development? Surely you need an existing Longhorn screen reader if the
> SDk
> must run under Longhorn, don't you? A bit of a chicken and egg problem,
> you
> could say, a screen reader for developing a screen reader.
>
> Another thing I'm worried about is Visual Studio 2003. The menu colors
> don't
> conform to my high-contrast color scheme, which leaves sufficient
> contrast
> between windows (fields) and dialogs without sacrificing readability,
> unlike
> most
> high-contrast schemes. More importantly, though, large parts of the
> program
> including the property panel in the forms editor and the right side of
> many
> dialogs seem to be totally inaccessible with Dolphin Supernova 6.51.
>
> Any thoughts or comments appreciated as usual,
>
> PS: I hope this is the list posting address. I haven't received a real
> welcome message just yet.
>
> With kind regards Veli-Pekka Tätilä (vtatila@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
> Accessibility, game music, synthesizers and programming:
> http://www.student.oulu.fi/~vtatila/
>
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