[ossrp-control] Re: Member Intro, Feature Suggestions and Questions

I like what you have written about Clique. Very interested to see a working
prototype.

-- Rich Caloggero, MIT ATIC / WGBH NCAM

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Parente" <parente@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: <ossrp-control@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 1:58 PM
Subject: [ossrp-control] Re: Member Intro, Feature Suggestions and Questions


Ha! I knew that was coming. I'm not a huge fan of whitespace as delimeter
either, but, to me, the rest of the language makes up for this minor
annoyance.

Info on Clique can be found at www.cs.unc.edu/~parente/clique.

On Tue, 31 May 2005 13:46:47 -0400, Rich Caloggero <rjc@xxxxxxx> wrote:

> Oh my god, not Python! It depends on indentation to write; yet another
> incredible mishmash of presentation and semantics! Perhaps the indented
> form
> of Python could be a shorthand, meant for easy coding, but the true
> language
> should not be tied to presentation.
>
> My preference for a scripting language would be JavaScript. I'm sure
> people
> will groan over that too, so lets here it!
>
> Sorry for my ignorance, but what is Clique?
>
> -- Rich
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter Parente" <parente@xxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <ossrp-control@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 1:40 PM
> Subject: [ossrp-control] Re: Member Intro, Feature Suggestions and
> Questions
>
>
> Using an existing language for "scripting" a screen reader can not only
> improve what the screen reader can do, but can also increase the chances
> of getting scripts written. For instance, if JAWS were scriptable with a
> language like Python, anyone familiar with Python already could write a
> JAWS script after learning the JAWS API--not the API plus an entirely new
> programming language. I'm guessing more people know a language like
> Python
> than the JAWS scripting language.
>
> Also, consider the situation where company XYZ has some application used
> internally that needs to be scripted so JAWS users can access it. The
> company isn't likely to spend money training someone in the
> single-purpose
> JAWS scripting language because the training is too specialized and isn't
> likely to be put to use very often. But if JAWS were scriptable in a
> multipurpose language that could find uses outside of screen reader
> scripting, the cost of training could be justified more easily--what is
> learned about Python can be applied elsewhere.
>
> And I'm only using Python as an example because it's what Clique uses for
> scripts. Insert the name of any general purpose language you'd like and
> I'm sure the above still makes sense.
>
> Pete
>
> On Tue, 31 May 2005 13:19:44 -0400, Rich Caloggero <rjc@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> Very well articulated. I agree with every word.
>> Thanx Matt.
>>
>> I believe that the Macintosh folks might also fall into the category of
>> trying to create an accessibility add-on (VoiceOver) which tries to make
>> the
>> blind experience of computing "as similar to that of their sighted peers
>> as
>> possible". I don't think this is what is needed from a tool such as a
>> screen
>> reader. In fact, what is needed is a toolbox which can be customized for
>> our
>> own needs, easily and effectively.
>>
>> Jaws, with its scripting language, is perhaps the closest thing to this
>> at
>> the moment.  However, their scripting language lacks much which is
>> common in
>> programming languages found today (like arrays of any kind, objects, and
>> functions which behave as they should. Objects can be referenced but not
>> defined. Functions have a weird behavior: they don't recurse; when you
>> call
>> a function from within itself, it calls back to the last different
>> function
>> defined with that name.
>>
>>
>> -- Cheers, Rich
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Matthew King" <mattking@xxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <ossrp-control@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 12:44 PM
>> Subject: [ossrp-control] Re: Member Intro, Feature Suggestions and
>> Questions
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Veli,
>>
>> With all due respect, I think your "minimalist" ideas at:
>> http://www.student.oulu.fi/~vtatila/free_screen_reader.html
>> are too minimalist, not realistic,  and are counter productive.
>>
>> For instance, rationalizing the exclusion of a feature because it is
>> "too
>> different" from how a sighted person uses a computer seems baseless. The
>> same logic would say that using an audio interface to a visually
>> oriented
>> system at all is "too different." The reality is that the very idea of a
>> screen reader, verses a computing platform designed from the ground-up
>> as
>> an audio-interface computing platform, begs for accomodations to
>> mitigate
>> the lack of efficiency inherent in bolt-on accessibility. Without such
>> mitigating accomodations, the audio-interface or tactile-interface user
>> will be left in the dust by his or her sighted peers.
>>
>> Matt King
>> Accessibility End User Advocate
>> IBM Enterprise Services/Corporate Accessibility CoC
>> Phone: (719) 520-3006, Tie line: 8-656-3006
>> Internet: mattking@xxxxxxxxxx
>> IBM Internal Accessibility Tools:
>> http://w3.ibm.com/tools/it/ittools.nsf/main/pwd_PWDResources.htm
>> IBM Internal Accessibility Transformation Home:
>> http://w3.ibm.com/transform/cio.nsf/main/pwd_main.htm
>> IBM Accessibility Center: http://www.ibm.com/able
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>              Veli-Pekka Tätilä
>>              <vtatila@xxxxxxxx
>>              dent.oulu.fi>
>> To
>>              Sent by:                  <ossrp-control@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>              ossrp-control-bou
>> cc
>>              nce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>
Subject
>>                                        [ossrp-control] Member Intro,
>>              05/28/2005 07:54          Feature Suggestions and Questions
>>              AM
>>
>>
>>              Please respond to
>>                ossrp-control
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi list,
>> I thought I'd introduce myself and ask a couple of questions about the
>> screen reader.
>>
>> I'm a 21-year-old sight immpaired FInnish guy and a lot into computers.
>> I
>> do
>> have a little sight left on my left eye: enough to use magnification but
>> not
>> so much to be able to abandon screen reading completely. I prefer
>> speech,
>> braille and the screen as output media in this order. FOr more info on
>> my
>> sight, check out this Web-page:
>>
>> http://www.student.oulu.fi/~vtatila/sight.html
>>
>> As to development work I know C plus plus and Java at some level and
>> have
>> done courses on software architectures
>> and object oriented design. Additionally, I'm naturaly into usability
>> and
>> accessibility. In addition to human computer interaction basics and some
>> GUi
>> design, I did beta test the screen reader for MacOs X 10.4 and am
>> currently
>> beta testing Dolphin screen reading products.
>>
>> My first question is whether it is possible to create plug-ins for the
>> screen reader or if there's some other extension mechanism for this
>> purpose?
>> A plug-in based approach would promote customizability or even
>> alternative
>> solutions to problems, in addition to enabling one to say emulate
>> existing
>> screen readers.
>>
>> I'd like to experiment with some ideas of my own or those that have been
>> proposed elswhere. Some examples:
>>
>> a. I read in CSUN about conveying the current screen position with
>> surround
>> sound. That would be great and I could actually try it out as I do have
>> a
>> 10x10 professional sound card for music and audio work. I think you
>> should
>> arrange the speakers a litle unconventionally around the monitor,
>> though,
>> such that moving up would mean up soundwise, too.
>>
>> b. An optional redundancy filter could help in streamlining screen
>> prompts.
>> That is it could compare the current and previous output and if there
>> were
>> similar pieces, remove them possibly notifying the user. This way the
>> problems of file names, progress indicators or any other prompt text
>> that
>> is
>> at least partially redundant could be mostly eliminated.
>>
>> c. Though this is only my personal take on things, I've got a very
>> specific
>> idea of how a screen reader should work overall and why. I call it the
>> screen reading philosophy and have a whole page dealing with it as well
>> as
>> with the feature suggestions at:
>>
>> http://www.student.oulu.fi/~vtatila/free_screen_reader.html
>>
>> Based on this page, any ideas as to what kind of philosophy the screen
>> reader will have? Many of the more minimalist ones like Narrator,
>> Gnopernicus or VoiceOver seem to be close to what I'd like. In brief, my
>> screen reading philosophy is that the screen reader should not change
>> how
>> the computer is operated unless that's absolutely necessary. Most of the
>> things I'm listing on the page stem from this basic rule.
>>
>> Finally, is it possible for a sight impaired person to do Longhorn
>> development? Surely you need an existing Longhorn screen reader if the
>> SDk
>> must run under Longhorn, don't you? A bit of a chicken and egg problem,
>> you
>> could say, a screen reader for developing a screen reader.
>>
>> Another thing I'm worried about is Visual Studio 2003. The menu colors
>> don't
>> conform to my high-contrast color scheme, which leaves sufficient
>> contrast
>> between windows (fields) and dialogs without sacrificing readability,
>> unlike
>> most
>> high-contrast schemes. More importantly, though, large parts of the
>> program
>> including the property panel in the forms editor and the right side of
>> many
>> dialogs seem to be totally inaccessible with Dolphin Supernova 6.51.
>>
>> Any thoughts or comments appreciated as usual,
>>
>> PS: I hope this is the list posting address. I haven't received a real
>> welcome message just yet.
>>
>> With kind regards Veli-Pekka Tätilä (vtatila@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
>> Accessibility, game music, synthesizers and programming:
>> http://www.student.oulu.fi/~vtatila/
>>
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>
>
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>
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