[ossrp-control] Re: Member Intro, Feature Suggestions and Questions

Thank you very much, David, for remembering the non-programmer end user, who 
will hopefully be the majority for this or any other screen reader. Screen 
readers exist to help us blind people do tasks as efficiently 
as possible. Trying to make us comform to how people with a sensory modality we 
do not possess do things, or making the power of the screen reader dependent on 
specialized knowledge are methods of making 
the screen reader less helpful and less accessible to the great majority of its 
potential users.
Mary

On Tue, 31 May 2005 19:29:18 +0100, David Lant wrote:

>Hi,

>Well, if you consider the platform, it makes sense to use .NET to provide
>not only the core functionality of the screen reader, but also for the
>extensibility of the product.  In that way, you don't have to restrict
>yourself to *any* language.  At last count, there were 32 different
>languages for the .NET Framework either available or being developed,
>including Python, Java, PURL, PHP and so on.  If the functionality is
>supplied as MS Intermediate Language, i.e. managed code, then what language
>any particular individual chooses to use is entirely a matter of taste.

>I would strongly advocate that a programmatic means of enhancing the screen
>reader should be viewed as an extensibility tool, and not as a user
>customisation tool.  I'd much rather users, and I, didn't have to code to
>tweak the screen reader in 95% of circumstances.  It should mainly be for
>those occasions when simply varying the parameters of existing features
>won't cut it.

>All the best,

>David


>-----Original Message-----
>From: ossrp-control-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>[mailto:ossrp-control-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Matthew King
>Sent: 31 May 2005 07:11
>To: ossrp-control@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: [ossrp-control] Re: Member Intro, Feature Suggestions and Questions






>Even though I am lothed to learn it ... since the initial project is on
>LongHorn, something that can reach into the app space is probably most
>appropriate ... e.g., C#. jjavascript is hardly an OO language. Matt King
>Accessibility End User Advocate IBM Enterprise Services/Corporate
>Accessibility CoC
>Phone: (719) 520-3006, Tie line: 8-656-3006
>Internet: mattking@xxxxxxxxxx
>IBM Internal Accessibility Tools:
>http://w3.ibm.com/tools/it/ittools.nsf/main/pwd_PWDResources.htm
>IBM Internal Accessibility Transformation Home:
>http://w3.ibm.com/transform/cio.nsf/main/pwd_main.htm
>IBM Accessibility Center: http://www.ibm.com/able



>                                                                           
>             "Rich Caloggero"                                              
>             <rjc@xxxxxxx>                                                 
>             Sent by:                                                   To 
>             ossrp-control-bou         <ossrp-control@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>       
>             nce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx                                          cc 
>                                                                           
>                                                                   Subject 
>             05/31/2005 11:46          [ossrp-control] Re: Member Intro,   
>             AM                        Feature Suggestions and Questions   
>                                                                           
>                                                                           
>             Please respond to                                             
>               ossrp-control                                               
>                                                                           
>                                                                           




>Oh my god, not Python! It depends on indentation to write; yet another
>incredible mishmash of presentation and semantics! Perhaps the indented form
>of Python could be a shorthand, meant for easy coding, but the true language
>should not be tied to presentation.

>My preference for a scripting language would be JavaScript. I'm sure people
>will groan over that too, so lets here it!

>Sorry for my ignorance, but what is Clique?

>-- Rich

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Peter Parente" <parente@xxxxxxxxxx>
>To: <ossrp-control@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 1:40 PM
>Subject: [ossrp-control] Re: Member Intro, Feature Suggestions and Questions


>Using an existing language for "scripting" a screen reader can not only
>improve what the screen reader can do, but can also increase the chances of
>getting scripts written. For instance, if JAWS were scriptable with a
>language like Python, anyone familiar with Python already could write a JAWS
>script after learning the JAWS API--not the API plus an entirely new
>programming language. I'm guessing more people know a language like Python
>than the JAWS scripting language.

>Also, consider the situation where company XYZ has some application used
>internally that needs to be scripted so JAWS users can access it. The
>company isn't likely to spend money training someone in the single-purpose
>JAWS scripting language because the training is too specialized and isn't
>likely to be put to use very often. But if JAWS were scriptable in a
>multipurpose language that could find uses outside of screen reader
>scripting, the cost of training could be justified more easily--what is
>learned about Python can be applied elsewhere.

>And I'm only using Python as an example because it's what Clique uses for
>scripts. Insert the name of any general purpose language you'd like and I'm
>sure the above still makes sense.

>Pete

>On Tue, 31 May 2005 13:19:44 -0400, Rich Caloggero <rjc@xxxxxxx> wrote:

>> Very well articulated. I agree with every word.
>> Thanx Matt.
>>
>> I believe that the Macintosh folks might also fall into the category 
>> of trying to create an accessibility add-on (VoiceOver) which tries to 
>> make the blind experience of computing "as similar to that of their 
>> sighted peers as
>> possible". I don't think this is what is needed from a tool such as a
>> screen
>> reader. In fact, what is needed is a toolbox which can be customized for
>> our
>> own needs, easily and effectively.
>>
>> Jaws, with its scripting language, is perhaps the closest thing to 
>> this at the moment.  However, their scripting language lacks much 
>> which is common in
>> programming languages found today (like arrays of any kind, objects, and
>> functions which behave as they should. Objects can be referenced but not
>> defined. Functions have a weird behavior: they don't recurse; when you
>> call
>> a function from within itself, it calls back to the last different
>> function
>> defined with that name.
>>
>>
>> -- Cheers, Rich
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Matthew King" <mattking@xxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <ossrp-control@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 12:44 PM
>> Subject: [ossrp-control] Re: Member Intro, Feature Suggestions and 
>> Questions
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Veli,
>>
>> With all due respect, I think your "minimalist" ideas at: 
>> http://www.student.oulu.fi/~vtatila/free_screen_reader.html
>> are too minimalist, not realistic,  and are counter productive.
>>
>> For instance, rationalizing the exclusion of a feature because it is 
>> "too different" from how a sighted person uses a computer seems 
>> baseless. The same logic would say that using an audio interface to a 
>> visually oriented system at all is "too different." The reality is 
>> that the very idea of a screen reader, verses a computing platform 
>> designed from the ground-up as an audio-interface computing platform, 
>> begs for accomodations to mitigate the lack of efficiency inherent in 
>> bolt-on accessibility. Without such mitigating accomodations, the 
>> audio-interface or tactile-interface user will be left in the dust by 
>> his or her sighted peers.
>>
>> Matt King
>> Accessibility End User Advocate
>> IBM Enterprise Services/Corporate Accessibility CoC
>> Phone: (719) 520-3006, Tie line: 8-656-3006
>> Internet: mattking@xxxxxxxxxx
>> IBM Internal Accessibility Tools: 
>> http://w3.ibm.com/tools/it/ittools.nsf/main/pwd_PWDResources.htm
>> IBM Internal Accessibility Transformation Home: 
>> http://w3.ibm.com/transform/cio.nsf/main/pwd_main.htm
>> IBM Accessibility Center: http://www.ibm.com/able
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>              Veli-Pekka Tätilä
>>              <vtatila@xxxxxxxx
>>              dent.oulu.fi>
>> To
>>              Sent by:                  <ossrp-control@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>              ossrp-control-bou
>> cc
>>              nce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>
>Subject
>>                                        [ossrp-control] Member Intro,
>>              05/28/2005 07:54          Feature Suggestions and Questions
>>              AM
>>
>>
>>              Please respond to
>>                ossrp-control
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi list,
>> I thought I'd introduce myself and ask a couple of questions about the 
>> screen reader.
>>
>> I'm a 21-year-old sight immpaired FInnish guy and a lot into 
>> computers. I do have a little sight left on my left eye: enough to use 
>> magnification but not
>> so much to be able to abandon screen reading completely. I prefer speech,
>> braille and the screen as output media in this order. FOr more info on my
>> sight, check out this Web-page:
>>
>> http://www.student.oulu.fi/~vtatila/sight.html
>>
>> As to development work I know C plus plus and Java at some level and 
>> have done courses on software architectures and object oriented 
>> design. Additionally, I'm naturaly into usability and accessibility. 
>> In addition to human computer interaction basics and some GUi
>> design, I did beta test the screen reader for MacOs X 10.4 and am
>> currently
>> beta testing Dolphin screen reading products.
>>
>> My first question is whether it is possible to create plug-ins for the 
>> screen reader or if there's some other extension mechanism for this 
>> purpose? A plug-in based approach would promote customizability or 
>> even alternative
>> solutions to problems, in addition to enabling one to say emulate
>> existing
>> screen readers.
>>
>> I'd like to experiment with some ideas of my own or those that have 
>> been proposed elswhere. Some examples:
>>
>> a. I read in CSUN about conveying the current screen position with 
>> surround sound. That would be great and I could actually try it out as 
>> I do have a 10x10 professional sound card for music and audio work. I 
>> think you should
>> arrange the speakers a litle unconventionally around the monitor, though,
>> such that moving up would mean up soundwise, too.
>>
>> b. An optional redundancy filter could help in streamlining screen 
>> prompts. That is it could compare the current and previous output and 
>> if there were
>> similar pieces, remove them possibly notifying the user. This way the
>> problems of file names, progress indicators or any other prompt text that
>> is
>> at least partially redundant could be mostly eliminated.
>>
>> c. Though this is only my personal take on things, I've got a very 
>> specific idea of how a screen reader should work overall and why. I 
>> call it the screen reading philosophy and have a whole page dealing 
>> with it as well as
>> with the feature suggestions at:
>>
>> http://www.student.oulu.fi/~vtatila/free_screen_reader.html
>>
>> Based on this page, any ideas as to what kind of philosophy the screen 
>> reader will have? Many of the more minimalist ones like Narrator, 
>> Gnopernicus or VoiceOver seem to be close to what I'd like. In brief, 
>> my screen reading philosophy is that the screen reader should not 
>> change how the computer is operated unless that's absolutely 
>> necessary. Most of the things I'm listing on the page stem from this 
>> basic rule.
>>
>> Finally, is it possible for a sight impaired person to do Longhorn 
>> development? Surely you need an existing Longhorn screen reader if the 
>> SDk must run under Longhorn, don't you? A bit of a chicken and egg 
>> problem, you
>> could say, a screen reader for developing a screen reader.
>>
>> Another thing I'm worried about is Visual Studio 2003. The menu colors 
>> don't conform to my high-contrast color scheme, which leaves 
>> sufficient contrast
>> between windows (fields) and dialogs without sacrificing readability,
>> unlike
>> most
>> high-contrast schemes. More importantly, though, large parts of the
>> program
>> including the property panel in the forms editor and the right side of
>> many
>> dialogs seem to be totally inaccessible with Dolphin Supernova 6.51.
>>
>> Any thoughts or comments appreciated as usual,
>>
>> PS: I hope this is the list posting address. I haven't received a real 
>> welcome message just yet.
>>
>> With kind regards Veli-Pekka Tätilä (vtatila@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx) 
>> Accessibility, game music, synthesizers and programming: 
>> http://www.student.oulu.fi/~vtatila/
>>
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