Re: another failed attempt at database independence
- From: Robert Freeman <robertgfreeman@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: Oracle-L Freelists <oracle-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 17:46:58 -0700 (PDT)
>> none of the data is normalized. they have columns with the same name in
different tables that mean different things. you have columns
>> copied to
lots of places because developers don't want to code joins (they think
its too hard).
Few things make my blood boil than this kind of thinking. Even on projects I
have nothing to do with I just want to smash heads together when I hear this
kind of thinking. Lazy developers!...! someone call the Wahhhhmbulance!
RF
Robert G. Freeman
Author:
Oracle Database 11g New Features (Oracle Press)
Portable DBA: Oracle (Oracle Press)
Oracle Database 10g New Features (Oracle Press)
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Blog: http://robertgfreeman.blogspot.com (Oracle Press)
----- Original Message ----
From: Rick Ricky <ricks12345@xxxxxxxxx>
To: Niall Litchfield <niall.litchfield@xxxxxxxxx>; oracle-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, May 7, 2008 1:56:05 PM
Subject: Re: another failed attempt at database independence
that article is 1.5 years old. I believe they are deployed to 80% of the DoD
now with expectations to be at 100%. My understanding is that the application
is bloated and really hard to use, so many people have the option to use travel
agents since the application is so hard to use. The idea behind it is travel
agents are expensive. Plus there is a lot of accounting associated with this
and they put it all into one application. so instead of calling a travel agent
and then using a separate accounting system, they wanted to put it all
together. It was supposed to save money. if you google it, you see claims of
big cost savings. No idea if its accurate or not.
it has very complex logic doing all kinds of stuff. none of the data is
normalized. they have columns with the same name in different tables that mean
different things. you have columns copied to lots of places because developers
don't want to code joins (they think its too hard).
The cost numbers on this vary depending on the article. I saw other articles
from 2005-2006 or earlier that clamed $600 million or more. I have seen that in
several places. So it might be less, it might be more. don't know.
On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 3:47 PM, Niall Litchfield <niall.litchfield@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 4:21 PM, Rick Ricky <ricks12345@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
The Defense Travel System (DTS) is attempting to move to database independence.
Last I read a few years ago they spent $600 million on this application up to
that point. I'm sure its alot higher now. Probably close to $1 billion or more.
It basically handles all of the commercial travel for the US Department of
Defense (over 3 million users). They have over 2 TBs of data. They did not
design for archiving so it will grow indefinitely.
doesn't tally with the figures in the google search you quoted - either for
total cost or for percentage of travel going through it. eg
http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/1106/111606p1.htm cost < $500m and < 20% of the
travel going through it.
They are currently working on a "technical refresh" (supposedly that is their
PR word for "pay us to write this piece of junk software again"). They wrote
their new modules against a mySQL database using an outsourced
sub-contracting company(which made money even though this failed completely. I
think the company is Dovel. Not sure. Might be IDC). They wanted to prove they
could make the application database independent. They used a tool called
Hybernate to generate all their queries. Probably spent millions of dollars on
this re-write of the code.
I expect you'll find that's hibernate... http://www.hibernate.org/
They deployed it to production 2 weeks ago and it was so bad that the whole
system was down for 3.5 days. This means EVERY person who works for the
department of defense could not book commercial travel
or get reimbursed or book hotels or get reimbursed for taxis or meals, or
CHANGE FLIGHTS if they were overseas for 3.5 days. They had to back out the
changes. It totally failed. Now since this is a time and material contract(they
make more money if they screw up), they are getting paid more money to fix it.
They do not have any code built into their application to let them detect where
the performance problems may be. Its so pathetic I have been told their DBAs
laugh at the rest of the team in their meetings. More of my tax money down in
flames. They already paid for the oracle licenses. Migrating 2 TBs of data that
is GROWING to another database is so unlikely it is laughable. Yet the DoD got
sold on database independence. They are not allowed to use ANY oracle features.
It would mean days of down time just to move the data to the new database and
this is before even testing it. That is not going to happen. The data model has
no normalization or primary keys at all (they ignore their DBAs).
Well that doesn't sound like a bad tech decision, but unprofessional behaviour
all round - I'd be sorely tempted to fire any of my team who laughed at their
work colleagues in team meetings, for example. In fact it mostly seems to me to
be a "why did you start when there are travel agents already" type question.
--
Niall Litchfield
Oracle DBA
http://www.orawin.info
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