Startup Force IS, actually, recommended. Check out the 9i RMan demo file case1.rcv in $ORACLE_HOME/rdbms/demo. Also, in your 10g docs, check out Backup and Recovery Advanced User's Guide ...6 Making Backups with RMAN: Advanced Topics ......Backing Up in NOARCHIVELOG Mode: Example In both cases Oracle recommends a Startup Force / Shutdown Immediate / Startup Mount sequence to get your NoArchivelog database ready for its RMan backup. Works for us in all our Dev and Test DB RMan backups. Jack C. Applewhite - Database Administrator Austin (Texas) Independent School District 512.414.9715 (wk) / 512.935.5929 (pager) I'll just sit back in the shade while everyone gets laid. That's what I call Intelligent Design. -- God ("Origin of Species": Chris Smither) "Andrew Kerber" <andrew.kerber@xxxxxxxxx> Sent by: oracle-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 06/27/2007 01:31 PM Please respond to andrew.kerber@xxxxxxxxx To "Jared Still" <jkstill@xxxxxxxxx> cc oracle.rdbms@xxxxxxxxx, oracle-l <oracle-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject Re: Query Database while shutdown in progress Sometime shutdown abort is necessary. However, its not recommended. I would rather not risk having to recover a database w/o a good reason. If all that is needed is to monitor a shutdown immediate. there are a lot of ways to handle that. If nothing else, you can tail the alert log, and see the id thats keep the instance form shutting down, then kill that session. That would be much safer than an abnormal termination of the instance. On 6/27/07, Jared Still <jkstill@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: On 6/27/07, Andrew Kerber < andrew.kerber@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: I dont think a startup force is a good idea. Last time I checked that did a shutdown abort followed by a startup. Same old debate. What's wrong with shutdown abort? Sometimes it is necessary. In flight transactions get rolled back either way. -- Jared Still Certifiable Oracle DBA and Part Time Perl Evangelist -- Andrew W. Kerber 'If at first you dont succeed, dont take up skydiving.'