RE: Backup RMAN on disk and tape at the same time

Jerome,

>> another DBA has to administer the database
>>he might crosscheck and then delete these "expired" backups
I agree 100%..."rm"ing *needed* backups that have been put to tape open
the door for RMAN (crosscheck) issues.


>>Pheww, they must have Terabytes RMAN catalogs :-)
Who uses catalogs anymore, even Oracle puts little emphasis on them
anymore.
I do use them in a large/many db shop though, but I have needed to
RESTORE and RECOVER a database suing a RMAN catalog.
I have always been able to use the current or additional controlfile
backup "copy" (to disk) that I have.

>>Do you mean they refused to expire the TDPO backups in TSM?
>>If so that's absolutely normal!
Is it normal for the SA to expire my EXPort *.dmp on /myOracle/BackupDir
taken with a filesystem backup?
This is just as much an Oracle backup as my RMAN backup.
Why should my SA's retention beliefs only apply to TDPO backups.
My SA expiries Oracle files from tape all the time!


>> It seems you were using 8i..it is easier with RMAN 9i,=20
Have handled deletes for both versions, 8i much more
challenging...non-existent.

>>That's not a SA task!
Sure it is.  Just ask them.
Old shop SA on Legato used to expire all the Oracle backups from the EBU
days to the early 8.0 RMAN days.

Please tell me of any shop where you are not also the SA and don not
have root and you are *required* to expire Oracle files taken in the
filesystem backups...never happens.
Not saying you shouldn't with the use of a MML Agent, but lets not
pretend that the is the rule and not the exception between SA's, DBA's
and all (other) forms backup's to tape.


>>Nowadays this statement would be utterly foolish.

I guess...I think I see things as black and white to, but done really
don't care if my controlfile still remembers a backup from two years
ago, that has long since been "rm'ed from the OS/tape.
Guess I don't share your desire to only know about "existing" backups.
If I don't have a current backup during RESTORE time, having a
controlfile or RMAN catalog that is clean of old non-existent backups is
not really much comfort.


Again, good point about the removing of needed backups sent to tape.

Chris



-----Original Message-----
From: Vitalis [mailto:vitalisman@xxxxxxxxx]=20
Sent: Friday, April 22, 2005 3:47 PM
To: Marquez, Chris
Cc: oracle-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Backup RMAN on disk and tape at the same time


Hi again Chris,

On 4/22/05, Marquez, Chris <CMarquez@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Jerome,
>=20
> >>*only in the first case* will this backup to tape be known to RMAN
> Maybe we are disagreeing on semantics, but I agree RMAN doesn't about=20
> any backup moved from the original location...put it back though, in=20
> the right place and RMAN *remembers* it, like it never left...agreed?

Yes we were disagreeing about the formulation I guess since our
explanations seem to be the same =3D)

> So it is a matter of "who" and "how" it is got from tape. Other than=20
> the DBA's on this list :o) most DBA's trust their SA to restore files=20
> from tape...then the DBA begins to RESTORE.
>=20
> >>RMAN backupsets to disk...then removed
> >>require to mark these backupsets as 'UNAVAILABLE'
> >>wouldn't be in sync with reality otherwise.
>=20
> No sure about "required"...a simple "maintenance channel"
> and some "crosscheck"ing would *find* the backupsets as missing and=20
> update the controlfile and catalog accordingly.

The backup sets would be marked as "expired", but the flag "expired" in
RMAN is NOT intended to be used for such temporarily missing backups. It
can be risky because if another DBA has to administer the database
without knowing this fact, and if he uses RMAN commands and flags the
way they were intended to be used, he might crosscheck and then delete
these "expired" backups (well, in fact, let's hope he will ask the rest
of the staff before doing so :-) The correct way to tell RMAN that these
backups are temporarily missing is to mark them as "UNAVAILABLE" and to
mark them as "AVAILABLE" again after restoring them from tapes.

> I would bet 9 out of 10 DBA's that "RMAN Backup to Disk" never "RMAN=20
> Delete" those backups...they user "$> rm" in their RMAN shell scripts=20
> do I.

Pheww, they must have Terabytes RMAN catalogs :-)

> However, I did delete all my own backups from tape when using Tivoli=20
> TSM/TDPO. The SA refused to delete/expire/purge Oracle backups going =20
> directly to tape (they would expire anything from filesystem=20
> backup...go figure?).

Do you mean they refused to expire the TDPO backups in TSM? If so that's
absolutely normal!

> I had to figure out in my own scripts and RMAN commands what backup to

> keep/retain...my RMAN and controlfile were in sync as you explained.

It seems you were using 8i. Of course you have to deal with the policy
retention (it is easier with RMAN 9i, but with 8i some scripts under
$ORACLE_HOME/rdbms/demo could help us with that). That's not a SA task!

> Back in early days I asked an author of a well know RMAN book about=20
> deleting RMAN backup from Tape/MML". His response "why do you want to=20
> do that...just have the MML expire your backup(sets)".

Nowadays this statement would be utterly foolish.

Cheers,
Jerome

>=20
> My point, most DBAs don't spend enough time on backups... ...even=20
> fewer spend any time on correctly deleting backupsets... ...you are=20
> one of the few.
>=20
> Chris
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vitalis [mailto:vitalisman@xxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Friday, April 22, 2005 1:06 PM
> To: Marquez, Chris
> Cc: lucdemanche@xxxxxxxxx; oracle-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Backup RMAN on disk and tape at the same time
>=20
> On 4/22/05, Marquez, Chris <CMarquez@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> > Jerome,
> >
> > >>resulting backup will be known in the control file/RMAN catalog.
> > No both will be "known" to RMAN...
>=20
> The "resulting backup" in my original sentence refered to the backups=20
> to tape in both cases. And *only in the first case* will this backup=20
> to tape be known to RMAN (as your next sentences rightly explained.)=20
> Moreover RMAN backupsets to disk backed up with TSM and then removed=20
> would require to mark these backupsets as 'UNAVAILABLE'  since the=20
> control file/RMAN catalog wouldn't be in sync with reality otherwise.=20
> With "BACKUP BACKUPSET..." the corresponding steps are somewhat=20
> automated thanks to the option "... DELETE ALL".
>=20
> Jerome
>=20
> > just that one will be known (to be) on tape
> > and the other will be known (to be) on disk (that has been copied to

> > tape...I realize RMAN knows nothing of this copy to tape)
> >
> > Just becomes a matter of how "who" and "how" to it off/back from=20
> > tape.
>=20
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Vitalis [mailto:vitalisman@xxxxxxxxx]
> > Sent: Friday, April 22, 2005 10:39 AM
> > To: Marquez, Chris
> > Cc: lucdemanche@xxxxxxxxx; oracle-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: Re: Backup RMAN on disk and tape at the same time
> >
> > Hi Chris,
> >
> > The main advantage of "backup backupset ..." (to tape) vs. TSM=20
> > backup of the backupsets is that the resulting backup will be known=20
> > in the control file/RMAN catalog. The administration of the backups=20
> > will be much
> > easier: one will be able to restore/recover files with simple=20
> > restore commands at the RMAN prompt (even if it will require for=20
> > RMAN to
> restore
> > a backup of a backupset and "unpack" it.)
> >
> > Regards,
> > Jerome
> >
> > On 4/22/05, Marquez, Chris <CMarquez@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > > Luc,
> > >
> > > >>I'm doing a backup of my backupset to tape.
> > >
> > > Can I assume that you are using the TDPO Agent to do the "backup=20
> > > of backupset (to tape)".
> > >
> > > Little curious as to why you bought the TDPO Agent...could you=20
> > > have done RMAN to disk and the left Tivoli TSM do the filesystem=20
> > > backup to move/copy your RMAN backups to tape.
> > >
> > > I do understand that by using TDPO Agent you don't have to wait=20
> > > for the SA to put the filesystem backup, back on disk...you can go

> > > get "backup of backupset" yourself using RMAN...guess I answered=20
> > > my own question...maybe?
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: oracle-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=20
> > > [mailto:oracle-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Luc Demanche
> > > Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2005 6:14 PM
> > > To: Vitalis
> > > Cc: oracle-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: Re: Backup RMAN on disk and tape at the same time
> > >
> > > Vitalis,
> > >
> > > I guess I found something.
> > > I'm doing my regular backup on disk, and after I'm doing a backup=20
> > > of
>=20
> > > my backupset to tape.
> > >
> > > backup backupset completed after 'sysdate-1';
> > >
> > > It's fine ...
> > >
> > > Luc
> > >
> > > On 4/21/05, Vitalis <vitalisman@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > > > On 4/21/05, Luc Demanche <lucdemanche@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > Oracle 9.2.0.4 and Tivoli.
> > > > >
> > > > > My RMAN backups are running fine since few months.  We just=20
> > > > > bought=3D20 the agent for Tivoli.
> > > > >
> > > > > I would like to know is someone tried to create there =
RMAN=3D20=20
> > > > > backupsets either on disk and tape in the same time?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you
> > > > >
> > > > > Luc
> > > > > --=3D3D3D20
> > > > > Luc Demanche
> > > > > Oracle DBA
> > > > > (514) 867-9977
> > > > > --
> > > > > http://www.freelists.org/webpage/oracle-l
> > > > >
> > > >=3D3D20
> > > > Hi Luc,
> > > >=3D3D20
> > > > Do you mean: simultaneously write each backup piece to disk and=20
> > > >to
>=20
> > > >=3D20 tape? Some sort of backup duplexing to 2 different media=20
> > > >types?
>=20
> > > >No, =3D20 that's not possible. =3D3D20  Regards,  Jerome =3D3D20
> > >
> > > --=3D3D20
> > > Luc Demanche
> > > Oracle DBA
> > > (514) 867-9977
> > > --
> > > http://www.freelists.org/webpage/oracle-l
> > > --
> > > http://www.freelists.org/webpage/oracle-l
> > >
> >
>
--
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