[opendtv] Re: Olympics picture quality
- From: Mark Aitken <maitken@xxxxxxxxxx>
- To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 17:01:03 -0400
AgileVision was the group that took on the task of making a product from
the NIST related activity...
tjharvey@xxxxxxx wrote:
>PBS has been distributing HD video at 18Mb/s for a number of years. A number
>PBS stations have been splicing MPEG-2 on a regular basis for years.
>
>Terry Harvey
>
>
>
>>From: Mark Aitken <maitken@xxxxxxxxxx>
>>Date: 2004/08/20 Fri PM 01:35:59 EDT
>>To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>Subject: [opendtv] Re: Olympics picture quality
>>
>>This (seamless splicing) is NOT a matter of meer demonstration (I
>>actually was responsible for putting together the first public demo of
>>compressed stream seamless splicing at NAB 1997 as part of a NIST
>>program ref::
>><http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/taglance/tag97win/tag97win.htm>)
>>Folks...native ATSC stream splicing IS real and being done TODAY. It is
>>the reason that FOX is distributing at final (19.39 Mb/s) encode rates.
>>All FOX stations that are passing through HDTV (come September) have the
>>option of the FOX gear (including seamless splicer) being supplied (we
>>have a whole bunch installed!). This is not a mystery, it is a reality.
>>Come the FOX HD debut in September (12th), you can be the judge of
>>whether it works or not...
>>
>>GerryK wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>I just talked with some people at Terayon,
>>>and they have demonstrated a few examples where
>>>they can successfully "splice" and "insert"
>>>HDTV advertising into a 19.39 Mb/s HDTV stream
>>>without an encode/decode cycle -
>>>
>>>their model BP-5100 box is being used by
>>>a few sports-related HDTV feeds, and they
>>>are inserting local ads and channel branding,
>>>in real time, in the compressed MPEG-2 HDTV stream
>>>
>>>so I'm surprised that NBC isn't going with that
>>>approach -
>>>
>>>Gerry Kauhold with In-Stat/MDR in Arizona
>>>gerryk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "John Willkie" <johnwillkie@xxxxxxxxxx>
>>>To: <opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 9:13 PM
>>>Subject: [opendtv] Re: Olympics picture quality
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Oh, I should have pointed out in my previous post: The spots come down in
>>>>the same path they always have for analog.
>>>>
>>>>I suspect that part of the delay is integrating the feeds with the HDTV
>>>>"spot."
>>>>
>>>>John Willkie
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>[mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Cliff Benham
>>>>Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 8:36 PM
>>>>To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>Subject: [opendtv] Re: Olympics picture quality
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Why are the NBC NTSC and HD feeds different? There is usually a half
>>>>hour difference between them.
>>>>Terry Harvey wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>But are the NBC commercial inserts coming from Athens?
>>>>>
>>>>>It seems to me that the MPEG-2 video is going through three encode-decode
>>>>>cycles:
>>>>>
>>>>>Encode Athens, decode/encode New York, decode/encode affiliate, decode
>>>>>consumer.
>>>>>
>>>>>Even at two cycles at 45Mb/s coupled with an 18Mb/s cycle there will be
>>>>>sufficient loss to give MPEG blocking when there is sufficient motion in
>>>>>the picture (eg. swinging Olympic logo).
>>>>>
>>>>>I don't think NBC New York is passing the video through from Athens
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>without
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>decoding.
>>>>>
>>>>>Terry Harvey
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>At 01:56 PM 8/19/2004 -0700, John Willkie wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>During the Olympics, NBC is being run out of Athens. Indeed, in the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>case
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>of
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>o&o's, the local station is being switched out of Athens.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>All the nets use 45Mb/sec contribution feeds, save Fox (when their
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>stream
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>switcher goes on line) which will be using 19.29 Mb/sec transmission
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>feed
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>to
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>affiliates.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>John Willkie
>>>>>>
>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>[mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of tjharvey@xxxxxxx
>>>>>>Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 10:58 AM
>>>>>>To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>Subject: [opendtv] Re: Olympics picture quality
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Doug,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I made mention of this last Sunday. I understand the pictures are
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>incoming
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>to NBC affiliates at DS3 rate of 45Mb/s, so the origination encoding
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>from
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>New York, or wherever else it is originating from in the US is sending
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>it
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>out at 45Mb/s. Affiliates decode and re-encode to 18Mb/s for
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>transmission
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>and so there is a generational loss but it should not be all that bad.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>My question is how is NBC receiving it at New York? I suspect a third
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>decode
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>is occurring before its US distribution to insert commercials. Or else
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>is
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>the encode from Athens at a different rate from NBC's DS-3 distribution
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>rate
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>which necessitates a third decode/ re-encode cycle?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Anyhow, I see the artifacts too. In future the viewer is regularly going
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>to
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>have to put up with this as the broadcast 'bean-counters' force limited
>>>>>>bandwidth. So just live with it and treat it as an interesting special
>>>>>>effect.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Terry Harvey
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>From: Doug McDonald <mcdonald@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>Date: 2004/08/19 Thu PM 01:03:46 EDT
>>>>>>>To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>Subject: [opendtv] Olympics picture quality
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Somebody here may well be able to answer my question
>>>>>>>on the picture quality of the HD Olympics.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Sinclair only turned on their true HD here for the
>>>>>>>Olympics ... it was ready days earlier, but they absolutely
>>>>>>>refused to let us see some regular HD programming before the
>>>>>>>Olympics, so that's all I have seen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>For static pictures, the quality (1080i) is certainly OK.
>>>>>>>There seems to be zero detail that my 720p TV can't handle:
>>>>>>>no change when I adjust the "sharpness" control, except for the
>>>>>>>local bug, and at CC It saw no more detail on 1080i sets, including
>>>>>>>the Sony XBR 950 set for "pro" mode, but it looks fine.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>However, when fast motion starts, such as the flying rings logo
>>>>>>>they use for replays, all Hell breaks loose: the logo itself
>>>>>>>breaks up into blocks, and is fuzzy to boot. I see no problem
>>>>>>>with flying logos on MNF (720p). When they show from-above
>>>>>>>distant shots of swimmers, the foam breaks up into total pixelated
>>>>>>>mud.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>When they show fast gymnastics, when they pan to follow a running
>>>>>>>gymnast, the background seems to move smoothly, so at least that
>>>>>>>part of the 50i->60i conversion is passable. BUT ... when the
>>>>>>>gymnasts have wailing arms or legs ... they actually disappear
>>>>>>>entirely! No, they don't get blurry ... there is no blur, just
>>>>>>>background behind where they should be. Well sometimes there is
>>>>>>>some faint trace or blurry stuff in front of the background,
>>>>>>>but not much.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Clearly the broken up flying logos is a local encoder issue, but
>>>>>>>what about the foam breakup and the missing arms? Is this local,
>>>>>>>or due to the 50->60 problem? Has any of you people seen what the
>>>>>>>un-19.3'd network feed looks like?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Overall I would say that both swimming and gymnastics has moments
>>>>>>>of simply unacceptably bad pictures.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Mark Aitken: are you sure that the WICD people have got their
>>>>>>>encoder set right? Are you using the same brand of encoders
>>>>>>>at all your 1080i stations?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Doug McDonald
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>--
>>
>>Regards,
>>Mark A. Aitken Director, Advanced Technology
>>
>>***********************************
>>Sinclair Broadcast Group
>>10706 Beaver Dam Road
>>Hunt Valley, MD 21030
>>Business TEL: (410) 568-1535
>>Business MOBILE: (443) 677-4425
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>>The laws of necessity, of self-preservation,
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--
Regards,
Mark A. Aitken Director, Advanced Technology
***********************************
Sinclair Broadcast Group
10706 Beaver Dam Road
Hunt Valley, MD 21030
Business TEL: (410) 568-1535
Business MOBILE: (443) 677-4425
Business FAX: (410) 568-1580
E-mail: maitken@xxxxxxxxxx
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===================================
"A strict observance of the written laws
is doubtless one of the high duties of a
good citizen, but it is not the highest.
The laws of necessity, of self-preservation,
of saving our country when in danger, are
of higher obligation. To lose our country
by a scrupulous adherence to written law
would be to lose the law itself, with life,
liberty, property, and all those who are
enjoying them with us; thus absurdly
sacrificing the end to the means."
--Thomas Jefferson
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