[opendtv] Re: Olympics picture quality

PBS has been distributing HD video at 18Mb/s for a number of years. A number 
PBS stations have been splicing MPEG-2 on a regular basis for years.

Terry Harvey

> 
> From: Mark Aitken <maitken@xxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: 2004/08/20 Fri PM 01:35:59 EDT
> To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [opendtv] Re: Olympics picture quality
> 
> This (seamless splicing) is NOT a matter of meer demonstration (I 
> actually was responsible for putting together the first public demo of 
> compressed stream seamless splicing at NAB 1997 as part of a NIST 
> program ref:: 
> <http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/taglance/tag97win/tag97win.htm>)
> Folks...native ATSC stream splicing IS real and being done TODAY. It is 
> the reason that FOX is distributing at final (19.39 Mb/s) encode rates. 
> All FOX stations that are passing through HDTV (come September) have the 
> option of the FOX gear (including seamless splicer) being supplied (we 
> have a whole bunch installed!). This is not a mystery, it is a reality. 
> Come the FOX HD debut in September (12th), you can be the judge of 
> whether it works or not...
> 
> GerryK wrote:
> 
> >I just talked with some people at Terayon,
> >and they have demonstrated a few examples where
> >they can successfully "splice" and "insert"
> >HDTV advertising into a 19.39 Mb/s HDTV stream
> >without an encode/decode cycle -
> >
> >their model BP-5100 box is being used by
> >a few sports-related HDTV feeds, and they
> >are inserting local ads and channel branding,
> >in real time, in the compressed MPEG-2 HDTV stream
> >
> >so I'm surprised that NBC isn't going with that
> >approach -
> >
> >Gerry Kauhold with In-Stat/MDR in Arizona
> >gerryk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> >----- Original Message ----- 
> >From: "John Willkie" <johnwillkie@xxxxxxxxxx>
> >To: <opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 9:13 PM
> >Subject: [opendtv] Re: Olympics picture quality
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> >>Oh, I should have pointed out in my previous post:  The spots come down in
> >>the same path they always have for analog.
> >>
> >>I suspect that part of the delay is integrating the feeds with the HDTV
> >>"spot."
> >>
> >>John Willkie
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>[mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Cliff Benham
> >>Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 8:36 PM
> >>To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>Subject: [opendtv] Re: Olympics picture quality
> >>
> >>
> >>Why are the NBC  NTSC and HD feeds different? There is usually a half
> >>hour difference between them.
> >>Terry Harvey wrote:
> >>
> >>    
> >>
> >>>But are the NBC commercial inserts coming from Athens?
> >>>
> >>>It seems to me that the MPEG-2 video is going through three encode-decode
> >>>cycles:
> >>>
> >>>Encode Athens, decode/encode New York, decode/encode affiliate, decode
> >>>consumer.
> >>>
> >>>Even at two cycles at 45Mb/s coupled with an 18Mb/s cycle there will be
> >>>sufficient loss to give MPEG blocking when there is sufficient motion in
> >>>the picture (eg. swinging Olympic logo).
> >>>
> >>>I don't think NBC New York is passing the video through from Athens
> >>>      
> >>>
> >without
> >  
> >
> >>>decoding.
> >>>
> >>>Terry Harvey
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>At 01:56 PM 8/19/2004 -0700, John Willkie wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>>>During the Olympics, NBC is being run out of Athens.  Indeed, in the
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >case
> >  
> >
> >>of
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>o&o's, the local station is being switched out of Athens.
> >>>>
> >>>>All the nets use 45Mb/sec contribution feeds, save Fox (when their
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >stream
> >  
> >
> >>>>switcher goes on line) which will be using 19.29 Mb/sec transmission
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >feed
> >  
> >
> >>to
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>affiliates.
> >>>>
> >>>>John Willkie
> >>>>
> >>>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>>From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>[mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of tjharvey@xxxxxxx
> >>>>Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 10:58 AM
> >>>>To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>Subject: [opendtv] Re: Olympics picture quality
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Doug,
> >>>>
> >>>>I made mention of this last Sunday. I understand the pictures are
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >incoming
> >  
> >
> >>>>to NBC affiliates at DS3 rate of 45Mb/s, so the origination encoding
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >from
> >  
> >
> >>>>New York, or wherever else it is originating from in the US is sending
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >it
> >  
> >
> >>>>out at 45Mb/s. Affiliates decode and re-encode to 18Mb/s for
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >transmission
> >  
> >
> >>>>and so there is a generational loss but it should not be all that bad.
> >>>>
> >>>>My question is how is NBC receiving it at New York? I suspect a third
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>decode
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>is occurring before its US distribution to insert commercials. Or else
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >is
> >  
> >
> >>>>the encode from Athens at a different rate from NBC's DS-3 distribution
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>rate
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>which necessitates a third decode/ re-encode cycle?
> >>>>
> >>>>Anyhow, I see the artifacts too. In future the viewer is regularly going
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>to
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>have to put up with this as the broadcast 'bean-counters' force limited
> >>>>bandwidth. So just live with it and treat it as an interesting special
> >>>>effect.
> >>>>
> >>>>Terry Harvey
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>>>>From: Doug McDonald <mcdonald@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>Date: 2004/08/19 Thu PM 01:03:46 EDT
> >>>>>To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>>Subject: [opendtv] Olympics picture quality
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Somebody here may well be able to answer my question
> >>>>>on the picture quality of the HD Olympics.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Sinclair only turned on their true HD here for the
> >>>>>Olympics ... it was ready days earlier, but they absolutely
> >>>>>refused to let us see some regular HD programming before the
> >>>>>Olympics, so that's all I have seen.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>For static pictures, the quality (1080i) is certainly OK.
> >>>>>There seems to be zero detail that my 720p TV can't handle:
> >>>>>no change when I adjust the "sharpness" control, except for the
> >>>>>local bug, and at CC It saw no more detail on 1080i sets, including
> >>>>>the Sony XBR 950 set for "pro" mode, but it looks fine.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>However, when fast motion starts, such as the flying rings logo
> >>>>>they use for replays, all Hell breaks loose: the logo itself
> >>>>>breaks up into blocks, and is fuzzy to boot. I see no problem
> >>>>>with flying logos on MNF (720p). When they show from-above
> >>>>>distant shots of swimmers, the foam breaks up into total pixelated
> >>>>>mud.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>When they show fast gymnastics, when they pan to follow a running
> >>>>>gymnast, the background seems to move smoothly, so at least that
> >>>>>part of the 50i->60i conversion is passable. BUT ... when the
> >>>>>gymnasts have wailing arms or legs ... they actually disappear
> >>>>>entirely! No, they don't get blurry ...  there is no blur, just
> >>>>>background behind where they should be. Well sometimes there is
> >>>>>some faint trace or blurry stuff in front of the background,
> >>>>>but not much.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Clearly the broken up flying logos is a local encoder issue, but
> >>>>>what about the foam breakup and the missing arms? Is this local,
> >>>>>or due to the 50->60 problem? Has any of you people seen what the
> >>>>>un-19.3'd network feed looks like?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Overall I would say that both swimming and gymnastics has moments
> >>>>>of simply unacceptably bad pictures.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Mark Aitken: are you sure that the WICD people have got their
> >>>>>encoder set right?  Are you using the same brand of encoders
> >>>>>at all your 1080i stations?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Doug McDonald
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
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> 
> Regards,
> Mark A. Aitken Director, Advanced Technology
> 
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