[opendtv] Re: Olympics picture quality

I just talked with some people at Terayon,
and they have demonstrated a few examples where
they can successfully "splice" and "insert"
HDTV advertising into a 19.39 Mb/s HDTV stream
without an encode/decode cycle -

their model BP-5100 box is being used by
a few sports-related HDTV feeds, and they
are inserting local ads and channel branding,
in real time, in the compressed MPEG-2 HDTV stream

so I'm surprised that NBC isn't going with that
approach -

Gerry Kauhold with In-Stat/MDR in Arizona
gerryk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Willkie" <johnwillkie@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: <opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 9:13 PM
Subject: [opendtv] Re: Olympics picture quality


> Oh, I should have pointed out in my previous post:  The spots come down in
> the same path they always have for analog.
>
> I suspect that part of the delay is integrating the feeds with the HDTV
> "spot."
>
> John Willkie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Cliff Benham
> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 8:36 PM
> To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [opendtv] Re: Olympics picture quality
>
>
> Why are the NBC  NTSC and HD feeds different? There is usually a half
> hour difference between them.
> Terry Harvey wrote:
>
> >But are the NBC commercial inserts coming from Athens?
> >
> >It seems to me that the MPEG-2 video is going through three encode-decode
> >cycles:
> >
> >Encode Athens, decode/encode New York, decode/encode affiliate, decode
> >consumer.
> >
> >Even at two cycles at 45Mb/s coupled with an 18Mb/s cycle there will be
> >sufficient loss to give MPEG blocking when there is sufficient motion in
> >the picture (eg. swinging Olympic logo).
> >
> >I don't think NBC New York is passing the video through from Athens
without
> >decoding.
> >
> >Terry Harvey
> >
> >
> >
> >At 01:56 PM 8/19/2004 -0700, John Willkie wrote:
> >
> >
> >>During the Olympics, NBC is being run out of Athens.  Indeed, in the
case
> of
> >>o&o's, the local station is being switched out of Athens.
> >>
> >>All the nets use 45Mb/sec contribution feeds, save Fox (when their
stream
> >>switcher goes on line) which will be using 19.29 Mb/sec transmission
feed
> to
> >>affiliates.
> >>
> >>John Willkie
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>[mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of tjharvey@xxxxxxx
> >>Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 10:58 AM
> >>To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>Subject: [opendtv] Re: Olympics picture quality
> >>
> >>
> >>Doug,
> >>
> >>I made mention of this last Sunday. I understand the pictures are
incoming
> >>to NBC affiliates at DS3 rate of 45Mb/s, so the origination encoding
from
> >>New York, or wherever else it is originating from in the US is sending
it
> >>out at 45Mb/s. Affiliates decode and re-encode to 18Mb/s for
transmission
> >>and so there is a generational loss but it should not be all that bad.
> >>
> >>My question is how is NBC receiving it at New York? I suspect a third
> decode
> >>is occurring before its US distribution to insert commercials. Or else
is
> >>the encode from Athens at a different rate from NBC's DS-3 distribution
> rate
> >>which necessitates a third decode/ re-encode cycle?
> >>
> >>Anyhow, I see the artifacts too. In future the viewer is regularly going
> to
> >>have to put up with this as the broadcast 'bean-counters' force limited
> >>bandwidth. So just live with it and treat it as an interesting special
> >>effect.
> >>
> >>Terry Harvey
> >>
> >>
> >>>From: Doug McDonald <mcdonald@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>Date: 2004/08/19 Thu PM 01:03:46 EDT
> >>>To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>Subject: [opendtv] Olympics picture quality
> >>>
> >>>Somebody here may well be able to answer my question
> >>>on the picture quality of the HD Olympics.
> >>>
> >>>Sinclair only turned on their true HD here for the
> >>>Olympics ... it was ready days earlier, but they absolutely
> >>>refused to let us see some regular HD programming before the
> >>>Olympics, so that's all I have seen.
> >>>
> >>>For static pictures, the quality (1080i) is certainly OK.
> >>>There seems to be zero detail that my 720p TV can't handle:
> >>>no change when I adjust the "sharpness" control, except for the
> >>>local bug, and at CC It saw no more detail on 1080i sets, including
> >>>the Sony XBR 950 set for "pro" mode, but it looks fine.
> >>>
> >>>However, when fast motion starts, such as the flying rings logo
> >>>they use for replays, all Hell breaks loose: the logo itself
> >>>breaks up into blocks, and is fuzzy to boot. I see no problem
> >>>with flying logos on MNF (720p). When they show from-above
> >>>distant shots of swimmers, the foam breaks up into total pixelated
> >>>mud.
> >>>
> >>>When they show fast gymnastics, when they pan to follow a running
> >>>gymnast, the background seems to move smoothly, so at least that
> >>>part of the 50i->60i conversion is passable. BUT ... when the
> >>>gymnasts have wailing arms or legs ... they actually disappear
> >>>entirely! No, they don't get blurry ...  there is no blur, just
> >>>background behind where they should be. Well sometimes there is
> >>>some faint trace or blurry stuff in front of the background,
> >>>but not much.
> >>>
> >>>Clearly the broken up flying logos is a local encoder issue, but
> >>>what about the foam breakup and the missing arms? Is this local,
> >>>or due to the 50->60 problem? Has any of you people seen what the
> >>>un-19.3'd network feed looks like?
> >>>
> >>>Overall I would say that both swimming and gymnastics has moments
> >>>of simply unacceptably bad pictures.
> >>>
> >>>Mark Aitken: are you sure that the WICD people have got their
> >>>encoder set right?  Are you using the same brand of encoders
> >>>at all your 1080i stations?
> >>>
> >>>Doug McDonald
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
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