[opendtv] Re: New Philips HDD/DVD recorder

Curb-cuts at corners (which accommodate wheel-chairs, and bicycles) permit
people to travel effectively who are less than fully physically able.  There
was no 'market' for this 'service' but there is great demand.  So,
government (owners and mandaters of curbs) entered the fray.

For the 'niche' of dual-channel audio to find a market, wouldn't the first
tv set with dual audio encoders need to be made?  While A/52 and A/53 don't
prohibit dual-channel audio (it is actually suggested), making it work would
be much tougher than retrofitting curbs with wheelchair friendly cuts.

I concede that dual decoders would be a tax -- until and unless dual audio
channels are provisioned -- on all users, with additional royalties to
Dolby, and perhaps it was a 'bridge too far' to require dual audio demods.
And, it certainly would have added complexity to receivers.

However, when one looks at complexity, the 'niches' of CEA-608 and -708 and
the basically unused 'V-chip' ratings didn't have any market support, yet
they're mandated.

So, dual-audio is "effectively banned."  (And, I've alluded to another
'mini-failure' -- by mandating CEA-608 and CEA-708, the only thing that we
get is the CEA-608 subset of CEA-708 captions.)

All of this takes on a different character if you think of yourself as
"temporarily able-bodied."

John Willkie

-----Mensaje original-----
De: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] En
nombre de Adam Goldberg
Enviado el: Thursday, December 27, 2007 3:55 PM
Para: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Asunto: [opendtv] Re: New Philips HDD/DVD recorder

So the 'mini-failure' is that because additional hardware & complexity
hasn't been built into any receivers (and most consumers haven't had to pay
for stuff they don't want), it'll cost additional bandwidth for a niche
feature ...

... if there's a market for the niche (enough market to justify producing
the additional audio channels), someone'll build a niche product (with two
or more audio decoders).  The standard doesn't prohibit it, AFAIK.

Adam Goldberg
adam_g@xxxxxxxxx


-----Original Message-----
From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Mark Schubin
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 5:39 PM
To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [opendtv] Re: New Philips HDD/DVD recorder

A 5.1-channel audio package might take 384 kbps (I prefer 448).  Mono 
audio might be 64 kbps.

So, a 5.1-channel VI package (audio for the visually impaired) takes 384 
kbps, and a 5.1-channel undescribed CM (complete mix) package takes 384 
kbps.  Together, they take 768 kbps out of the channel.  On the other 
hand, a mono description (VI) added to a 5.1-channel complete mix (CM) 
is just 448 kbps, a savings of 320 kbps.

Now consider other viewers.  A 5.1-channel music & effects package (ME) 
might take 384 kbps, which, combined with a 64 kbps English-language 
dialogue (D) channel comes to 448 kbps, worse than just the CM.  But add 
Spanish 5.1, and the two CMs would take 768 kbps; 2D+ME is just 512 
kbps.  Add French to that (as you might want to do in Miami, where the 
three languages are commonly spoken), and it's 3CM at 1.2 Mbps versus 
3D+ME at 576 kbps.  Add more languages, and the bit-rate advantage 
increases for the dual decoders.

Or try a science show with multiple commentary channels.

But broadcasters cannot do it, even though it's perfectly okay in the 
standard, because (unless things have changed recently) not a single 
dual-stream audio decoder has been sold.

TTFN,
Mark


Adam Goldberg wrote:
> Can someone explain this to me.
>
> In order to have a program with descriptive audio, you must produce the
> program without descriptive audio; also then produce the descriptive
audio.
>
> After our 'mini-failure', in order to broadcast a program with descriptive
> audio (optional), you need to send two complete audios (one without, one
> with the descriptive audio).  Decoders with only one decoder merely select
> the right one somehow.
>
> Without the 'mini-failure', in order to broadcast a program with
descriptive
> audio (optional), you'd need to send one complete audio and one mezzanine
> audio with just the description.  Decoders would need to select & decode
the
> mezzanine for those that want it.
>
> What functionality exactly is missing given our state of having a
> 'mini-failure'?
>
> Adam Goldberg
> adam_g@xxxxxxxxx
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On
> Behalf Of Mark Schubin
> Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 3:40 PM
> To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [opendtv] Re: New Philips HDD/DVD recorder
>
> John Willkie wrote:
>   
>> I suspect that you disagree with the effective banning of dual audio as
>> being a mini-failure.   
>>
>> I see it as making 4 or more of the bsmod services unusable and making
>> descriptive video service (if that becomes mandatory per the FCC at some
>> point in the future) 'rather difficult.' (Blind people won't be able to
>> select how much source audio they hear in relation to video
descriptions.)
>>   
>>     
> Agreed.
>
> TTFN,
> Mark
>
>  
>  
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