[opendtv] Re: New Philips HDD/DVD recorder

There's certainly nothing wrong with the voluntary standard.

But, as for the rest, we're faced with the Sarnoff Conundrum.
We'll never know if there's a market for broadcasters to do dual-stream-type programming, because there are no receivers. There are no receivers because there are no broadcasts. And, even if receivers started to appear today, there could still be no broadcasts because ME+D disenfranchises all viewers without dual-stream decoders.
In this post-Sarnoff, post-Matsushita/Universal era, no U.S. broadcaster is co-owned with a TV-receiver manufacturer.
So the standard's dual-stream capabilities are merely a curiosity, lack the lack of existence of RS-170A. They're worthless. 

TTFN,
Mark


Adam Goldberg wrote:

So the 'mini-failure' is that because additional hardware & complexity
hasn't been built into any receivers (and most consumers haven't had to pay
for stuff they don't want), it'll cost additional bandwidth for a niche
feature ...

... if there's a market for the niche (enough market to justify producing
the additional audio channels), someone'll build a niche product (with two
or more audio decoders).  The standard doesn't prohibit it, AFAIK.

Adam Goldberg
adam_g@xxxxxxxxx


-----Original Message-----
From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Mark Schubin
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 5:39 PM
To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [opendtv] Re: New Philips HDD/DVD recorder
A 5.1-channel audio package might take 384 kbps (I prefer 448). Mono audio might be 64 kbps.
So, a 5.1-channel VI package (audio for the visually impaired) takes 384 kbps, and a 5.1-channel undescribed CM (complete mix) package takes 384 kbps. Together, they take 768 kbps out of the channel. On the other hand, a mono description (VI) added to a 5.1-channel complete mix (CM) is just 448 kbps, a savings of 320 kbps.
Now consider other viewers. A 5.1-channel music & effects package (ME) might take 384 kbps, which, combined with a 64 kbps English-language dialogue (D) channel comes to 448 kbps, worse than just the CM. But add Spanish 5.1, and the two CMs would take 768 kbps; 2D+ME is just 512 kbps. Add French to that (as you might want to do in Miami, where the three languages are commonly spoken), and it's 3CM at 1.2 Mbps versus 3D+ME at 576 kbps. Add more languages, and the bit-rate advantage increases for the dual decoders. 

Or try a science show with multiple commentary channels.
But broadcasters cannot do it, even though it's perfectly okay in the standard, because (unless things have changed recently) not a single dual-stream audio decoder has been sold. 

TTFN,
Mark


Adam Goldberg wrote:

Can someone explain this to me.

In order to have a program with descriptive audio, you must produce the
program without descriptive audio; also then produce the descriptive

audio.

After our 'mini-failure', in order to broadcast a program with descriptive
audio (optional), you need to send two complete audios (one without, one
with the descriptive audio).  Decoders with only one decoder merely select
the right one somehow.

Without the 'mini-failure', in order to broadcast a program with

descriptive

audio (optional), you'd need to send one complete audio and one mezzanine
audio with just the description.  Decoders would need to select & decode

the

mezzanine for those that want it.

What functionality exactly is missing given our state of having a
'mini-failure'?

Adam Goldberg
adam_g@xxxxxxxxx

-----Original Message-----
From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]

On

Behalf Of Mark Schubin
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 3:40 PM
To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [opendtv] Re: New Philips HDD/DVD recorder

John Willkie wrote:

I suspect that you disagree with the effective banning of dual audio as
being a mini-failure. 
I see it as making 4 or more of the bsmod services unusable and making
descriptive video service (if that becomes mandatory per the FCC at some
point in the future) 'rather difficult.' (Blind people won't be able to
select how much source audio they hear in relation to video

descriptions.)

Agreed.

TTFN,
Mark
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