Not sure I ever thought I would be saying this, but the exec at
Microsoft and Kilroy have it right.
1080P is clearly better than 1080i as a camera acquisition format,
however, there are practical limits on the frame rates that can be
supported and encoded for emission. The reality is that 1080P on the
acquisition side of the video chain is becoming synonymous with
1080@24P. This is what is being used by Hollywood for digital post
production, and in some cases for acquisition. 1080@60P is for all
practical purposes a display format, and as Kilroy noted, it can just
as easily be 1080@50P or 1080@72P.
1080@60P as an acquisition format is ludicrous today. It may take
another decade to develop cameras that can do a decent job with
1080@xxxxxx
To explain, the problem with cameras is that you need to oversample
by a factor of 1.5 to 2, to produce images that can take full
advantage of the available spectra in a 1920 x 1080 format. We are
not there yet even for 1080@24P. Doing this at 1080@60P is even
further out in the future. Then there is the other reality that the
sensitivity of the camera is limited by the sample area on the
sensors and the frame rate. Building an oversampling camera to
produce high quality 1280 x 720 is far more practical; on an
oversampling 1080P display the quality will be outstanding.
Kilroy touched on the issue of getting 1080@60P through the HDMI
connections to commercial displays. This is also true for the entire
video production chain. Virtually all of the HD production gear in
use today is limited to the clock rates used for 720@60P/1080@30i.
There are now over 40 remote trucks on the road that can easily
switch between these formats; video production chains that could
support 1080@60P do not exist today, and there is little reason to
believe that this equipment will be available in the near future, or
that the industry will replace the existing HD gear that is just
coming on line.
Another interesting side story here is that we are talking about
gaming platforms. Clearly, it is desirable to render the graphics for
a game using progressive formats. I don't know what the render specs
are for the current generation of game platforms, or what is planned
for the PS3, but I am very confident that the graphics ARE NOT being
rendered at 1920 x 1080@60P.
Bottom line, I believe that most of the hype about 1080@60P is being
generated by those who are in the 1080@30i camp as an acquisition
format. The long term belief (hope) that 1080@60P will become the one
format to rule them all, helps to prop up 1080@30i for today.
Microsoft had it right in the '90s, suggesting that all emission
formats be progressive. The issues related to entropy coding alone
justify this, not to mention the elimination of interlace artifacts
in acquisition gear.
The emphasis should be on building oversampled 720P cameras, and
giving the emission channel enough headroom to deliver the full
potential quality of this format. The oversampled 1080P displays can
deal with the small number of displays sold that will be large enough
to need 2 million screen samples.
Meanwhile, interlaced SD is still the primary economic engine behind
the television industry. If we had listened to Microsoft, Apple et
all in the '90s, we would at least have a digital TV system that
delivers high quality images to ALL modern progressive displays.
Regards Craig
[TB] "This doesn't work well with (confused) telecined material, causes artifacts, and likely will involve some additional filtering by the display to hide those."
Published HD DVD-V discs have had their P24 cadence carefully preserved. That has been SOP for DVD-Vs by the major Studios and authoring facilities for several years. Video editing gear has become cadence aware to preserve "edited on tape" TV. Production chains handle native P24 at most stages now, such as D5 tape machines, video editing, etc., so P24 can be encoded Progressive_Sequence=1, or =0 with repeat field flags and consistent frames/field pairs.
HD DVD-V players should render graphics at P24 as well as the video, and only apply field scanning and 3:2 pulldown to the composited output (only necessary because display manufacturers don't support HDMI 1080P24 mode). A display won't be confused by P24 output with 3:2 pulldown.
The interlace problems you mention used to be a big problem for DVD-V for the first few years when 480P output players and progressive displays were rare. Now there are many tens of millions of progressive display systems that have resulted in mostly good production behavior.
The industry still has no clue how to make HDMI and 1080P work. Displays are still forced to guess what kind of video content is coming over the wire and what signal processing is being done by the source device and the display device.
Kilroy Hughes -----Original Message----- From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Tom Barry Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 16:04 To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [opendtv] Re: Microsoft Exec: 1080p HDTV Is Meaningless
Kilroy Hughes wrote: > The 1080i30 output of the Samsung BD player will be "inverse telecined" > by the 1080 displays out there, 12 fields will be thrown away, and the > other 48 will be losslessly combined into 24 frames, which can be > blinked by the display at 60, 72, 120Hz, etc. for motion and contrast > improvement. No scaling/resampling, filtering, "deinterlacing", etc. > needed. >
That is sort of a best case scenario. If there are bad edits, moving video menus, or video (or different cadence) PIP then it is very hard to
just throw away fields. And even harder to automatically determine that
you should be doing that.
But if the deinterlacer is uncertain it may fall into an attempt at motion compensated or adaptive deinterlacing, assuming the worst. This doesn't work well with (confused) telecined material, causes artifacts, and likely will involve some additional filtering by the display to hide
those.
So while deinterlacing is absolutely necessary in our new world of all progressive displays I still won't trust it much.
- Tom
1080linesThe writer didn't understand, so you drew the wrong conclusion.
The fact is that the HD displays worth considering are progressive display technology (DLP, PDP, LCD, LCOS, etc.). If they haveof resolution, they always DISPLAY 1080P, even if you input an interlaced signal, even if the video was sampled interlaced. The only
telecined"question is how much damage is inflicted by source and display processing to create that progressive image.
The 1080i30 output of the Samsung BD player will be "inverseby the 1080 displays out there, 12 fields will be thrown away, and the
> improvement. No scaling/resampling, filtering, "deinterlacing", etc.other 48 will be losslessly combined into 24 frames, which can be blinked by the display at 60, 72, 120Hz, etc. for motion and contrastneeded.
The 1080i30 HDMI connection produces better progressive video than the
are1080P60 output.
The 1080P60 output applies 3:2 pulldown to generate 60 fields in the player, then deinterlaces with a Genesis chip. Ugliness happens when resampling, motion compensating, and filtering 60 540 line fields, to synthesize 60 1080 line frames. 60 frames of judder and distortionjudder).then passed over the video interface (HDMI) and processed by the display's image processor (random behavior different for different displays) and displayed at 60 frames per second (with 32ms/48msplayer
As many reviewers have noted, the i30 signal connection from thisproduces cleaner, higher resolution progressive display with the same disc, player, and display than the 60P signal connection.
Microsoft is a big fan of encoding and displaying progressive images,
but the hype about P60 vs. i30 signal interconnect is a red herring.
Kilroy Hughes
------------------------------------------------------------------------ >new*From:* opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *Mark Aitken *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2006 08:32 *To:* OpenDTV *Subject:* [opendtv] Microsoft Exec: 1080p HDTV Is Meaningless
I find it "interesting" that MicroSoft NOW finds the P vs. I argument "meaningless"! Perhaps marketing hype only works in one direction???
http://www.tvpredictions.com/1080p081506.htm
News & Commentary Microsoft Exec: 1080p HDTV Is Meaningless The company's XBox strategist attacks Sony's decision to include theaformat in the PlayStation 3. By Phillip Swann
Washington, D.C. (August 15, 2006) -- A key Microsoft strategist says the industry is 'hyping' 1080p, the new format that purportedly offersconsole,sharper High-Definition TV picture.
Andre Vrignaud, Microsoft's chief strategist for the XBox gameandsays the current 1080i format ("i" stands for interlaced; "p" for progressive.) provides a picture just as good.
Sony, Microsoft's chief gaming rival, is launching a new game console (Play Station 3) in November that will support 1080p for HDTV moviesgames while Microsoft's XBox 360 will not. The latter console displays
games in 1080i and will include a 1080i HD-DVD adapter later in theyear.meaningless
"What's interesting is that a lot of folks don't realize howmodern1080p actually is in this generation," Vrignaud writes at his blog, Ozymandias.com. "Most modern HD displays (Plasmas, LCD, DLP, etc.) display content progressively, //even if they first received an interlaced signal (so) //when you're watching a 1080 signal on aHD display, you're //almost always// watching a 1080p signal."
Vrignaud, Microsoft's director of technical strategy for XBox Live, added that gamers, and HDTV owners, should not be "sucked into all the
can't1080p hype."
Swanni Sez: The battle over picture formats is just starting. Sony (and TV manufacturers who are launching 1080p sets) will say the new format offers a better picture. But Microsoft, and perhaps some network programmers who would like to keep filming in 1080i, will say youtell the difference.
It's too early to say which side will win, But the short term loser is
the American consumer who is already confused enough by high-def.
Click TVPredictions.com <http://www.tvpredictions.com> to see the rest
of today's Swanni Sez.
(c) TVPredictions.com
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