[opendtv] Re: Microsoft Exec: 1080p HDTV Is Meaningless

......so what do you think: how much bit-rate would be required for a
1080p/60 emission format using e.g. MPEG-4 AVC?

1: equal to 1080i/30 (average critical material)
2: less than 1080i/30 (how much with average critical materail - percentage)
3: more than 1080i/30 (""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" - percentage)


Regards,
Hans


European Broadcasting Union
Hans Hoffmann - Senior Engineer 
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Tom Barry
> Sent: jeudi, 17. août 2006 18:47
> To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [opendtv] Re: Microsoft Exec: 1080p HDTV Is Meaningless
> 
> 
> Displays are clearly headed towards 1080p, at some frame rate.  And 
> oversampled telecines are emerging that can create a good 1080p/24 
> archive media.  We just don't have good 1080p/60 cameras yet.
> 
> But if we archive and increasingly work with 1080p there is not much 
> problem with using 720p as an emission format when needed.  
> Or even 540p 
> or 576p for Internet delivery.  Yet highdef DVD's of some 
> sort can maybe 
> also use 1080p/60 as the surplus space becomes available.
> 
> The emission format is sort of the thin section of the pipe 
> right now, 
> but it's not the only pipe.  So we will likely expand the 
> resolution at 
> both ends to take advantage of future opportunities and other 
> delivery 
> methods.
> 
> - Tom
> 
> 
> Craig Birkmaier wrote:
> > Not sure I ever thought I would be saying this, but the exec at
> > Microsoft and Kilroy have it right.
> > 
> > 1080P is clearly better than 1080i as a camera acquisition format,
> > however, there are practical limits on the frame rates that can be 
> > supported and encoded for emission. The reality is that 
> 1080P on the 
> > acquisition side of the video chain is becoming synonymous with 
> > 1080@24P. This is what is being used by Hollywood for digital post 
> > production, and in some cases for acquisition. 1080@60P is for all 
> > practical purposes a display format, and as Kilroy noted, 
> it can just as 
> > easily be 1080@50P or 1080@72P.
> > 
> > 1080@60P as an acquisition format is ludicrous today. It may take
> > another decade to develop cameras that can do a decent job 
> with 1080@xxxxxx
> > 
> > To explain, the problem with cameras is that you need to 
> oversample by 
> > a
> > factor of 1.5 to 2, to produce images that can take full 
> advantage of 
> > the available spectra in a 1920 x 1080 format.  We are not 
> there yet 
> > even for 1080@24P. Doing this at 1080@60P is even further 
> out in the 
> > future. Then there is the other reality that the sensitivity of the 
> > camera is limited by the sample area on the sensors and the 
> frame rate. 
> > Building an oversampling camera to produce high quality 
> 1280 x 720 is 
> > far more practical; on an oversampling 1080P display the 
> quality will be 
> > outstanding.
> > 
> > Kilroy touched on the issue of getting 1080@60P through the HDMI
> > connections to commercial displays. This is also true for 
> the entire 
> > video production chain. Virtually all of the HD production 
> gear in use 
> > today is limited to the clock rates used for 
> 720@60P/1080@30i. There are 
> > now over 40 remote trucks on the road that can easily 
> switch between 
> > these formats; video production chains that could support 
> 1080@60P do 
> > not exist today, and there is little reason to believe that this 
> > equipment will be available in the near future, or that the 
> industry 
> > will replace the existing HD gear that is just coming on line.
> > 
> > Another interesting side story here is that we are talking about 
> > gaming
> > platforms. Clearly, it is desirable to render the graphics 
> for a game 
> > using progressive formats. I don't know what the render 
> specs are for 
> > the current generation of game platforms, or what is 
> planned for the 
> > PS3, but I am very confident that the graphics ARE NOT 
> being rendered at 
> > 1920 x 1080@60P.
> > 
> > Bottom line, I believe that most of the hype about 1080@60P is being
> > generated by those who are in the 1080@30i camp as an acquisition 
> > format. The long term belief (hope) that 1080@60P will 
> become the one 
> > format to rule them all, helps to prop up 1080@30i for today.
> > 
> > Microsoft had it right in the '90s, suggesting that all emission 
> > formats
> > be progressive. The issues related to entropy coding alone 
> justify this, 
> > not to mention the elimination of interlace artifacts in 
> acquisition gear.
> > 
> > The emphasis should be on building oversampled 720P cameras, and 
> > giving
> > the emission channel enough headroom to deliver the full potential 
> > quality of this format. The oversampled 1080P displays can 
> deal with the 
> > small number of displays sold that will be large enough to need 2 
> > million screen samples.
> > 
> > Meanwhile, interlaced SD is still the primary economic 
> engine behind 
> > the
> > television industry. If we had listened to Microsoft, Apple 
> et all in 
> > the '90s, we would at least have a digital TV system that 
> delivers high 
> > quality images to ALL modern progressive displays.
> > 
> > Regards
> > Craig
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > At 6:16 PM -0700 8/16/06, Kilroy Hughes wrote:
> > 
> >> [TB] "This doesn't work well with (confused) telecined material, 
> >> causes artifacts, and likely will involve some additional 
> filtering 
> >> by the display to hide those."
> >>
> >> Published HD DVD-V discs have had their P24 cadence carefully 
> >> preserved. That has been SOP for DVD-Vs by the major Studios and 
> >> authoring facilities for several years.  Video editing gear has 
> >> become cadence aware to preserve "edited on tape" TV.  Production 
> >> chains handle native P24 at most stages now, such as D5 tape 
> >> machines, video editing, etc., so P24 can be encoded 
> >> Progressive_Sequence=1, or =0 with repeat field flags and 
> consistent 
> >> frames/field pairs.
> >>
> >> HD DVD-V players should render graphics at P24 as well as 
> the video, 
> >> and only apply field scanning and 3:2 pulldown to the composited 
> >> output (only necessary because display manufacturers don't support 
> >> HDMI 1080P24 mode).  A display won't be confused by P24 
> output with 
> >> 3:2 pulldown.
> >>
> >> The interlace problems you mention used to be a big 
> problem for DVD-V 
> >> for the first few years when 480P output players and progressive 
> >> displays were rare.  Now there are many tens of millions of 
> >> progressive display systems that have resulted in mostly good 
> >> production behavior.
> >>
> >> The industry still has no clue how to make HDMI and 1080P work. 
> >> Displays are still forced to guess what kind of video content is 
> >> coming over the wire and what signal processing is being 
> done by the 
> >> source device and the display device.
> >>
> >> Kilroy Hughes
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> >> [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> >> On Behalf Of Tom Barry
> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 16:04
> >> To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Subject: [opendtv] Re: Microsoft Exec: 1080p HDTV Is Meaningless
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Kilroy Hughes wrote:
> >>  > The 1080i30 output of the Samsung BD player will be "inverse 
> >> telecined"  > by the 1080 displays out there, 12 fields will be 
> >> thrown away, and the
> >>  > other 48 will be losslessly combined into 24 frames, 
> which can be
> >>  > blinked by the display at 60, 72, 120Hz, etc. for 
> motion and contrast
> >>  > improvement.  No scaling/resampling, filtering, 
> "deinterlacing", etc.
> >>  > needed.
> >>  >
> >>
> >> That is sort of a best case scenario.  If there are bad 
> edits, moving 
> >> video menus, or video (or different cadence) PIP then it 
> is very hard 
> >> to
> >>
> >> just throw away fields.  And even harder to automatically 
> determine 
> >> that
> >>
> >> you should be doing that.
> >>
> >> But if the deinterlacer is uncertain it may fall into an 
> attempt at 
> >> motion compensated or adaptive deinterlacing, assuming the worst.  
> >> This doesn't work well with (confused) telecined material, causes 
> >> artifacts, and likely will involve some additional 
> filtering by the 
> >> display to hide
> >>
> >> those.
> >>
> >> So while deinterlacing is absolutely necessary in our new world of 
> >> all progressive displays I still won't trust it much.
> >>
> >> - Tom
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>  The writer didn't understand, so you drew the wrong conclusion.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>  The fact is that the HD displays worth considering are 
> progressive  
> >>> display technology (DLP, PDP, LCD, LCOS, etc.).  If they have
> >>
> >> 1080lines
> >>
> >>>  of resolution, they always DISPLAY 1080P, even if you input an  
> >>> interlaced signal, even if the video was sampled interlaced.  The 
> >>> only
> >>
> >>
> >>>  question is how much damage is inflicted by source and display  
> >>> processing to create that progressive image.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>  The 1080i30 output of the Samsung BD player will be "inverse
> >>
> >> telecined"
> >>
> >>>  by the 1080 displays out there, 12 fields will be thrown 
> away, and 
> >>> the
> >>
> >>
> >>>  other 48 will be losslessly combined into 24 frames, 
> which can be  
> >>> blinked by the display at 60, 72, 120Hz, etc. for motion and 
> >>> contrast
> >>
> >>  > improvement.  No scaling/resampling, filtering, 
> "deinterlacing", 
> >> etc.
> >>
> >>>  needed.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>  The 1080i30 HDMI connection produces better progressive 
> video than 
> >>> the
> >>
> >>
> >>>  1080P60 output.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>  The 1080P60 output applies 3:2 pulldown to generate 60 fields in 
> >>> the  player, then deinterlaces with a Genesis chip.  Ugliness 
> >>> happens when  resampling, motion compensating, and 
> filtering 60 540 
> >>> line fields, to  synthesize 60 1080 line frames.  60 frames of 
> >>> judder and distortion
> >>
> >> are
> >>
> >>>  then passed over the video interface (HDMI) and 
> processed by the  
> >>> display's image processor (random behavior different for different
> >>>  displays) and displayed at 60 frames per second (with 32ms/48ms
> >>
> >> judder).
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>  As many reviewers have noted, the i30 signal connection from this
> >>
> >> player
> >>
> >>>  produces cleaner, higher resolution progressive display with the 
> >>> same  disc, player, and display than the 60P signal connection.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>  Microsoft is a big fan of encoding and displaying progressive 
> >>> images,  but the hype about P60 vs. i30 signal 
> interconnect is a red 
> >>> herring.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>  Kilroy Hughes
> >>>
> >>>
> >> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> ---
> >>  >
> >>
> >>>  *From:* opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx  
> >>> [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *Mark Aitken
> >>>  *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2006 08:32
> >>>  *To:* OpenDTV
> >>>  *Subject:* [opendtv] Microsoft Exec: 1080p HDTV Is Meaningless
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>  I find it "interesting" that MicroSoft NOW finds the P vs. I 
> >>> argument  "meaningless"! Perhaps marketing hype only works in one 
> >>> direction???
> >>>
> >>>  http://www.tvpredictions.com/1080p081506.htm
> >>>
> >>>  News & Commentary
> >>>  Microsoft Exec: 1080p HDTV Is Meaningless
> >>>  The company's XBox strategist attacks Sony's decision to include 
> >>> the
> >>
> >> new
> >>
> >>>  format in the PlayStation 3.
> >>>  By Phillip Swann
> >>>
> >>>  Washington, D.C. (August 15, 2006) -- A key Microsoft strategist 
> >>> says  the industry is 'hyping' 1080p, the new format that 
> >>> purportedly offers
> >>
> >> a
> >>
> >>>  sharper High-Definition TV picture.
> >>>
> >>>  Andre Vrignaud, Microsoft's chief strategist for the XBox game
> >>
> >> console,
> >>
> >>>  says the current 1080i format ("i" stands for interlaced; "p" for
> >>>  progressive.) provides a picture just as good.
> >>>
> >>>  Sony, Microsoft's chief gaming rival, is launching a new game 
> >>> console  (Play Station 3) in November that will support 1080p for 
> >>> HDTV movies
> >>
> >> and
> >>
> >>>  games while Microsoft's XBox 360 will not. The latter console 
> >>> displays
> >>
> >>
> >>>  games in 1080i and will include a 1080i HD-DVD adapter 
> later in the
> >>
> >> year.
> >>
> >>>
> >>>  "What's interesting is that a lot of folks don't realize how
> >>
> >> meaningless
> >>
> >>>  1080p actually is in this generation," Vrignaud writes 
> at his blog,  
> >>> Ozymandias.com. "Most modern HD displays (Plasmas, LCD, 
> DLP, etc.)  
> >>> display content progressively, //even if they first received an  
> >>> interlaced signal (so) //when you're watching a 1080 signal on a
> >>
> >> modern
> >>
> >>>  HD display, you're //almost always// watching a 1080p signal."
> >>>
> >>>  Vrignaud, Microsoft's director of technical strategy for 
> XBox Live,  
> >>> added that gamers, and HDTV owners, should not be "sucked 
> into all 
> >>> the
> >>
> >>
> >>>  1080p hype."
> >>>
> >>>  Swanni Sez:
> >>>  The battle over picture formats is just starting. Sony (and TV  
> >>> manufacturers who are launching 1080p sets) will say the 
> new format  
> >>> offers a better picture. But Microsoft, and perhaps some network  
> >>> programmers who would like to keep filming in 1080i, will say you
> >>
> >> can't
> >>
> >>>  tell the difference.
> >>>
> >>>  It's too early to say which side will win, But the short 
> term loser 
> >>> is
> >>
> >>
> >>>  the American consumer who is already confused enough by high-def.
> >>>
> >>>  Click TVPredictions.com <http://www.tvpredictions.com> 
> to see the 
> >>> rest
> >>
> >>
> >>>  of today's Swanni Sez.
> >>>
> >>>  (c) TVPredictions.com
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > 
> > 
> > 
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