[opendtv] From Ed Reitan

  • From: Mark Schubin <tvmark@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: Open DTV Forum <opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 12:49:18 -0500

John,

I have told you of my futile experiments with ATSC HDTV
reception.  I was there from the beginning with ATSC since 1999
and have continually found reception with blocking (aka tiling)
and complete drop out artifacts to be difficult if not possible
to achieve.  This was through the first generation Panasonic
boxes, my second generation Sony KD-34XBR2 set, and my latest
third generation Sony KD-34XBR960 Super Fine Pitch™ XBR  - the
last great CRT HDTV receiver (they went to a less resolved
Trinitron in the 750).

With the KD-34XBR2 receiver, I had a 34 foot high Winegard
antenna on a two story building in Westwood, and unless I turned
the antenna in azimuth directly to Mount Wilson, I would have
occasional blocking.

With every generation of ATSC receivers and continual problems,
they have repeatedly said the "next generation" of chips would
solve the problem.  Sinclair argued at the start of ATSC to
shelve it and adopt COFDM modulation - they were accused of just
dragging their feet to save new transmitter cost, but I am
beginning to suspect they were right.  But the problem has still
not been solved.

So on nights when the cable has problems, I tune my KD-34XBR960
to direct reception and use a UHF loop.  I can see the red lights
of the four Omaha towers with my eye out the window from the
receiver - but I still get blocking and complete drops outs.  The
system just does not work, except with a perfect signal.

Maybe someone from Zenith, on the distribution, has some comments
regarding the problem.

Ed Reitan

----- Original Message ----- From: "John F. Pinckney" <o2bnw6@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "John K Folsom Jr" <jfolsomjr@xxxxxxxxxx>; "Steve Dichter"
<stevetek@xxxxxxxxx>
Cc: <dave.arland@xxxxxxxxxxx>; <chuck@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>;
<eckhard.etzold@xxxxxx>; <ereitan@xxxxxxxxx>;
<stevemcvoy@xxxxxxxxx>; <fredh@xxxxxxxxxxx>;
<o2bnw6@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; <pldexnis@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>;
<ScottMarshall@xxxxxxx>; <shoffman2@xxxxxxxxxxxx>;
<SKosareff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; <kissinge@xxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday color TV -My 37.5 Cents Worth
(Inflation!)


John,

As for NTSC going kaput in 2009, I seriously doubt it for several
reasons:

As things stand now, the -LP and -CA TV broadcasters will still
be using NTSC after the planned 2009 switch-off because the FCC
currently has no defined plan for their digital future.  Ditto
translators.  The Telecoms act mandating the end of broadcast
NTSC didn't address these things, either.  See further down for
more!

According to cable industry data, 42% of American TV households
get their TV exclusively via an antenna.  While some fraction of
that 42% may well take up the Feds on those $40 coupons to buy a
converter to dump ATSC into an NTSC receiver before the deadline,
the rest will be out of luck.  Be assured that the political
furor from these folks has the potential of causing a political
turnabout faster than the repeal of Prohibition after FDR took
office.

Also, for those who do buy a converter (or spring for a DTV),
they will find that tuning an ATSC signal over the air is a much
dicier proposition than tuning NTSC.  ATSC is an extremely
fragile protocol over the air.  I live about 15 miles from the
Tenleytown section of D.C, where the majority of Washington's TV
transmitters are.  And, in the two years since I bought what I
consider the best TV I'll probably ever own (Sony 34XBR960) with
a 2-bay bowtie currently  fix-aimed towards the WJLA/WUSA/WHUT
stick at 4010 Chesapeake St. N.W.  I can say it has been rare
that I've viewed a program in its entirety without tiling,
pixeling, or complete signal dropouts of varying lengths of time!
I know the Sony has a hot RF section.  It's the best analog TVDX
receiver I've used since my last Sony.  So, I know it's not the
receiver.  Average consumers experiencing this may well feel
cheated after buying equipment that they cannot use with the
antenna that served them so faithfully.  See political furor,
above!  Point to ponder here: In any of the popular "newsstand"
magazines, has anyone in this thread seen an evaluation of OTA
reception of ATSC in articles dealing with DTV?  I'm asking
because I haven't!

Broadcasters dependent upon OTA reception could well take a
financial hit when those FCC and Computer predicted 30dBu
coverage charts don't match real world conditions and
advertisers.  I've seen the theoretical data saying that at UHF
1MW in ATSC = 5MW in NTSC, with sumilarly absurd power reductions
for VHF.  In afct, there are major market DTV's on UHF running
lower ERP's tahn I do on 440!  Also, I started experimenting with
digital comms at VHF back in the mid-1980's.  I quickly learned
that at a given power at a given frequency, RF is like a pipe in
that it doesn't really care what you shove down it although
digital is slightly more S/N dependent than analog.  Given the
silicon excrement that seems to prefominate in today's consumer
electronics, I'm not hopeful.  Again, see political furor.

Since Cable and Satellite carriage is almost mandatory for
reliable ATSC reception, the fact that there is no standard for
Cable (or Satellire, for that matter) carriage of broadcast DTV,
ahsent the arrival of universal common sense between now and 2009
anyways, what will happen is anybody's guess.  Right now it's a
patchwork of agreements on an MSO-by-MSO basis.  And, in some
areas where it's either Cable TV or Satellite TV or no TV at all,
what happens after 2009 is anybody's guess right now.  Where I
vacation in the deserts and mountains of California, the only
HDTV on Cable are from a few of the Cable nets -not broadcast.
Indeed, there are more than a few Cable systems that get their
off-airs via translators.  And, what to do about translators
(Along with -LP's and -CA's is something the FCC is putting off
into the future!)  At best, I see an unholy marriage between
lawyers and engineers with the Feds presiding over the nuptials.
At worse, I see a "Be careful of what you pray for" scenario in
which everybody loses.  Once again, see political furor!

The best that I see as the result of the aforementioned political
furor will be imposition of what should've been done in the first
place:

Mo retail sale of NTSC-only receivers permitted after a set date.

Continued transmission of NTSC permitted until a
politically-significant majority of NTSC receivers have gone to
the landfills.  While the UK, Eire, Belgium, and France went
15-19 years before ditching their respective 405 line and 819
line systems for 625 lines, my gut instinct would be that given
the utter junk that passes today for a consumer television
receiver, I'd say 12-15 years would be reasonable!

Oh yes, my final reason why the rumors of NTSC's death in 2009
may be premature is that while some NTSC countries have selected
ATSC, with others picking either the Japanese or European digital
systems, there are others that are still undecided.  And, even in
those countries where a digital selection has been made, the
build-out of transmission facilities and purchase of receivers by
consumers is likely to be even more protracted than here in the
U.S.

Finally, when it comes to NTSC color, just remember who made the
first broadcast with it after FCC approval: CBS!

Sorry for the rant on NTSC.  Personally, I think it was a very
forward-compatiable system given its original invention whose
inventors should be up there with Shockley, Brittain, and Bardeen
in terms of fame.

John



-----Original Message-----

>From: John K Folsom Jr <jfolsomjr@xxxxxxxxxx>
>Sent: Dec 17, 2007 6:43 PM
>To: Steve Dichter <stevetek@xxxxxxxxx>
>Cc: dave.arland@xxxxxxxxxxx, chuck@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx,
eckhard.etzold@xxxxxx, ereitan@xxxxxxxxx, stevemcvoy@xxxxxxxxx,
fredh@xxxxxxxxxxx, o2bnw6@xxxxxxxxxxxxx,
pldexnis@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, ScottMarshall@xxxxxxx,
shoffman2@xxxxxxxxxxxx, SKosareff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx,
kissinge@xxxxxxxxxx

>Subject: Re: Happy Birthday color TV
>
>Guess 'ol NTSC will make it to 55, then RIP.  Bummer. Not many
other

>technological systems have survived that many years!
>
>John
>On Dec 17, 2007, at 5:49 PM, Steve Dichter wrote:
>
>> Hey Guys,
>>
>> Today is the 54th annversary of the F.C.C.'s ok for the
compatible

>> color
>> tv system. Where does the time go?  Here's a reminder of of
that

>> event,
>> in print, courtesy of Steve McVoy's ETF site:
>>
>> ETF - RCA Color System Articles
>>
Address:http://www.earlytelevision.org/rca_color_system_ads.html

>>
>> Best,
>> Steve D.
>>
>>
>>
>> Please visit my Vintage Color TV website:
>> http://community.webtv.net/stevetek/StevesCT100
>


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