[opendtv] Re: Food for thought

  • From: Ron Economos <k6mpg@xxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 04:45:37 -0800

The second generation encoders (when they were
introduced last September) were thought to be
around 20 to 30% better than the 1st gen encoders.

Since then, the top tier encoder vendors have
tweaked another 20 to 30% out of the baseline
Ambarella algorithm.

So for the BBC at 20 Mbps, they should be able
to get the same level of quality today at 12.8 Mbps
(assuming two 20% gains).

Ron

Tom Barry wrote:

Ron -

At something like typical BBC HD usage are you willing to venture a guess on current/future relative bit rate efficiency of AVC encoders vs MPEG-2?

- Tom


Ron Economos wrote:

The BBC trials were done with a 1st generation
H.264 encoder. We are still very much on the
steep part of the slope for encoding quality
improvements in H.264. Second generation encoders
are shipping, and the encoding quality on those
devices is rapidly evolving from when they
were first introduced.

Even though the BBC trials were just last year,
they are already out of date with regard to H.264
encoding technology.

Ron




Manfredi, Albert E wrote:

Bob Miller wrote:

Your logic seems to say, if I understand it, that is by
switching to MPEG-4 and doing HD only they will sacrifice
3 or 4 SD MPEG-2 program channels per HD program channel.


Yes, that is what the BBC wrote.

Following that logic though you could do 2 HD program
channels with MPEG-4 and have either 3 SD or 1 SD program
with MPEG-2 also.


In a 23.42 Mb/s channel (64-QAM, 2/3 FEC, 1.16 GI), the BBC would be
able to pack anywhere from 6 to 8 SDTV streams, since these SD streams
are average 3 to 4 Mb/s.

Instead of 6 to 8 SD streams, in that same 8 MHz channel they could
transmit 2 HDTV streams. They did not give an actual range of bit rates
for HDTV, only stated that 19.5 was the maximum. The important point
that everyone prefers to ignore, but only using words and never numbers, is that this is not substantially different from MPEG-2. I'm sure the HD
would be subjectively better with H.264, but we are NOT talking about a
big difference, *from what they report*.

If we assume that "3 to 4 SD streams" can translate to 9 Mb/s for HDTV
H.264 as a very bare minimum, then in the 23.42 Mb/s you could
potentially transmit two HD streams and have 5.42 Mb/s left over for
SDTV. Again, not substantially different from MPEG-2, where you can also
use an average of ~9 Mb/s for a 24p HD stream, as a minimum.

But if you went completely to MPEG-4, then you could have
the 2 HD program channels and 6 or 2 SD program channels
also


They didn't say what SD bit rates were possible with H.264. But from the
Sky comment, you might say that 5.42 left over b/s (from two bare
minimum HD streams) could either be used for 2 SD streams with MPEG-2,
or 3 SD streams with H.264. But these would be low quality SD, less than
3 Mb/s for MPEG-2.

This is everything at the bare minimum. If the HD streams were sports,
for instance, or one of them was, you wouldn't have this option.

Bert





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