[opendtv] Re: EETimes.com - DVB ponders next-gen terrestrial DTV standard

  • From: "Dale Kelly" <dalekelly@xxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2006 13:34:27 -0800

Bob wrote:
>One thing that baffles me is that broadcasters are not pushing for
>MPEG4.

I mostly agree with your statements below except for the lack of broadcaster
interest in MPEG 4. Work on the issue is progressing as we speak.


-----Original Message-----
From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On
Behalf Of Bob Miller
Sent: Friday, March 03, 2006 7:06 PM
To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [opendtv] Re: EETimes.com - DVB ponders next-gen terrestrial DTV
standard

Manfredi, Albert E wrote:

>Bob Miller wrote:
>
>
>
>>I am beginning to think that you don't want to
>>understand what I am saying Al
>>
>>
>
>I understand, Rob, I just don't buy much of it. You start sounding
>reasonable and then lapse into the customary hype. For example:
>
>
>
>>A business plan that is based on 8-VSB has to
>>contend with problems that a business plan based
>>on DVB-T doesn't.
>>
>>
>
>This has been overstated starting back in 2002/2003. Robustness issues
>are basically solved. That the solutions are only sold in expensive and
>highly integrated products is not the fault of 8-VSB. It is perhaps
>greedy CE vendors (e.g. LG's strategy of not providing ATSC in separate
>components), or CE vendors seeing a lack of broadcaster content, which
>in turn creates lack of consumer demand, or perhaps the conspiracy
>theories.
>
>
AFAIK they are not sold in ANY product. You keep saying this but what
are you talking about? Where is any robust 8-VSB receiver being sold?
And I am not even talking about mobile or portable. The only one that
was good enough for a fixed reception only business plan was the
prototype we tested 18 months ago and it is sold in no product I am
aware of.

And while "good enough" for a very weak business plan it is NOT robust
IMO even in fixed locations. I was able to kill reception by just
walking in front of a Radio Shack dual bow tie antenna with a clear line
of sight to the Empire State building just blocks away. I was able to
kill reception by just standing to either side of the antenna in a fixed
position. That is not robust in by book. Not when broadcasting from that
same location toward the Empire State Building with COFDM at ONE kW ERP
I could drive around the base of the ESB in heavy traffic with NO line
of sight with perfect mobile reception. Remember before we went to Mark
Schubin's apartment we tested it on the 25th floor of the old AT&T
building with nothing but maybe a seagull between us and the ESB. It
worked very well at Mark's but not so well at the AT&T building, a far
far better location you would think. The LG engineers got pretty
agitated there by the way.

The differences in a basic COFDM receiver and the BEST RECEIVER EVER for
8-VSB are still ASTOUNDING. Please don't try to equate them it doesn't
compute.

And this is NOT overstating the differences.

There are no conspiracies among CE companies just common sense which
says stay away from 8-VSB. We have talked to many such companies over
the years. The facts are very simple. 8-VSB is a problem not work
diddling with. Much easier profits can be made elsewhere.

There is no consumer demand where consumers are not being sold anything.
No one is selling 8-VSB. At best a few are playing a bit with it. I
think there is quite a bit of content but it is easier to just get it on
cable or satellite in most cases. Even many early adopters are just
waiting till they can get what they want on cable to dump OTA.

The reality is that it just doesn't work that well so no one is on
board. That means only one weak offering anything like Freeview, few
receivers, no advertising, virtually no promotion of OTA anything. The
reality is that broadcasters see there butter on the cable side of the
toast and anything they do with OTA other than just keep it alive hurts
their pocketbook.

One thing that baffles me is that broadcasters are not pushing for
MPEG4. Since they want to multicast must carry you would think they
would want to be capable of the most content in their 6 MHz. I have been
betting on that one and nothing has been happening. What don't I know?

So if you just don't buy what I am saying say so. Don't put words in my
mouth about what I have said about people buying modulation or
robustness. We all know what people buy and what they don't. They are
not buying 8-VSB.

Bob Miller


>
>
>>The reality is that most TV in the future will be
>>watched in places other than the living room.
>>
>>
>
>That's the hype, and it has yet to be proven. But whatever the case,
>living room TV (or other stationary TV) is still going strong and will
>continue to do so. For example, it is what's driving Freeview success.
>And furthermore, mobile hand-held is done by DVB-H and MediaFlo, and
>therefore has nothing to do with ATSC.
>
>
>
>>Estonia is going with MPEG4 and DVB-T. Estonia will
>>have a successful DTV transition. It is a given.
>>
>>
>
>That's also hype, and nothing precludes MPEG-4/AVC from ATSC anyway.
>Never has. People don't care about MPEG-x. Freeview in the UK does just
>fine without AVC. People care about what they can get that they couldn't
>get before. Even with MPEG-2, there is plenty of room for interesting
>multicasts in DTT today, and it's going unused or underutilized.
>Especially if you consider recording devices and what they can do to
>alleviate transmission schedules. And by the way, we ALREADY have
>excellent HDTV, even without AVC.
>
>
>
>>In the US no one is offering what cable is offering
>>OTA because of the modulation and codec issues but
>>more importantly the modulation and codec issues are
>>being ignored by broadcasters because they are
>>concentrating on multicast must carry issues.
>>
>>
>
>The robustness issue should no longer be a problem, even if it once was.
>I never said anything about carrying what's on cable. I said DTT has to
>carry something that OTA NTSC does not. That extra stuff does not HAVE
>to be from cable. It has to be content that convinces people to buy an
>ATSC box. Just as people were convinced to buy cable by extra sports.
>Something more than they have with NTSC OTA.
>
>And the part about only worrying about must-carry only reinforces what I
>said. Broadcasters have to think about what they are offering in order
>to create demand. A different modulation doesn't change that.
>
>So perhaps you can see what I mean. You keep harping on non-issues. It's
>not a modulation problem. It's not a compression algorithm problem. The
>robustness problem was solved three years ago. It's time to stop beating
>tired old drums.
>
>Bert
>
>
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