[nvda] Re: window-eyes7 beta with scripting

Hello, the whole debate is interesting, because if you think about it people in 
other countries cant afford windows let alone jaws or window eyes.
although i've heard stories where people in india can get talks for symbian for 
$70 american dollars. 
This leads me to believe they can probably obtain jaws or window eyes at a 
cheap price as well.
although the price of windows in india is still probably pretty high, so this 
is why some indian blind groups are starting to use linux.
Just my thoughts
Farhan Khan
On 6/26/2008 at 14:21 Gene said
I would expect that Window-eyes and their users are benefiting from other 
screen-readers experience with scripting but that isn't the point of my 
messages.  I'm mainly saying that developing a free screen-reader is an 
important project because of the high cost of for profit screen-readers. 
Those who benefit will use it.  But the for profit screen-readers will still 
have very valid reasons to be used and the hostility of many in the 
open-source community and many not in that community toward for profit 
screen-readers is not justified.  Providing a free alternative does not 
necessitate hostility toward for profit programs.

Gene
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Greer" <jpgreer@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 12:00 PM
Subject: [nvda] Re: window-eyes7 beta with scripting


> And Window Eyes isn't benefiting from the scripting engine that has 
> already been done before on other screen readers?
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Gene" <gsasner@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 1:49 PM
> Subject: [nvda] Re: window-eyes7 beta with scripting
>
>
>>I didn't say you should buy it.  I don't see any reason to buy anything if 
>>you can meet your needs without doing so.  My main point is that I see 
>>lots of hostility toward the for profit screen-readers and their 
>>manufacturers not just here but all over and I'm saying it isn't 
>>reasonable and also that those who use free access programs are benefiting 
>>from all the work and years of experience gained by the for profit product 
>>manufacturers and their users.
>>
>> Gene
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "John Greer" <jpgreer@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 10:42 AM
>> Subject: [nvda] Re: window-eyes7 beta with scripting
>>
>>
>>> regardless I am still not going to buy it
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Gene" <gsasner@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 10:46 AM
>>> Subject: [nvda] Re: window-eyes7 beta with scripting
>>>
>>>
>>>> There is no logical reason for the hostility many blind people in the 
>>>> open
>>>> source community, and out of it for that matter, display toward for 
>>>> profit
>>>> screen-readers.  First, as a matter of simple economics, for profit
>>>> screen-readers need to charge a fair amount of money because the 
>>>> customer
>>>> base is so small and development and expansion of functionality never 
>>>> stops.
>>>> Also, you aren't paying 900 dollars for one year's access.  You can use 
>>>> the
>>>> program as long as it meets your needs without upgrading.  I haven't 
>>>> checked
>>>> the cost for an upgrade but if you upgrade each year, it's probably 
>>>> between
>>>> 100 and 150 dollars as a rough guess. Many users can use versions of 
>>>> screen-readers that are many years old and do everything or almost 
>>>> everything they want to with the older versions.
>>>>
>>>> Second, in lots of cases, the for profit screen-readers set standards 
>>>> and
>>>> developed approaches that open source screen-readers either are held to 
>>>> or
>>>> hold themselves to.  The Internet is an excellent example.  Third, 
>>>> while I'm
>>>> pleased that open source screen-readers and other free alternatives are 
>>>> now
>>>> available, the plain fact is that for profit Windows screen-readers 
>>>> were
>>>> available a decade or more before any free product was.  Where was the 
>>>> open
>>>> source community all that time?
>>>>
>>>> Also, considering the very different primary user bases of for profit
>>>> screen-readers and free ones, it is not logical to believe that 
>>>> Window-eyes
>>>> added scripting to compete with NVDA.  If anything, it did so to 
>>>> compete
>>>> with JAWS.  Only a short-sighted person would rejoice if the free
>>>> screen-readers significantly erode the customer base of for profit
>>>> screen-readers.  For profit screen-readers are necessary.  No 
>>>> open-source
>>>> screen-reader is going to have the development base to keep up with
>>>> developments in expanding the range of access to new applications as 
>>>> the for
>>>> profit screen-readers.  This is important for personal users who want 
>>>> access
>>>> to applications not available in free screen-readers and is essential 
>>>> in
>>>> terms of employment.  To prove my point about lack of development 
>>>> resources, consider how long it has taken NVDA to get support for 
>>>> FireFox. It still doesn't have anything approaching proper support for 
>>>> Internet. Explorer. Maybe it will be able to use hooks one day to 
>>>> provide better access to some programs and just plain acces to others.
>>>> Note carefully that I am not disparaging NVDA.  I think it is important 
>>>> that a free screen-reader be available.  But neither am I disparaging 
>>>> the for profit screen-readers.  Indeed, there appears to be far more 
>>>> hostility in the open source community, at least judging by this list 
>>>> toward the for profit screen-readers than there is in the for profit 
>>>> community toward NVDA. And let's be fair and take account of the for 
>>>> profit manufacturers attempts to meet the needs of those who can't 
>>>> afford their programs.  A number of years ago, one of the important 
>>>> people at G W Micro stated, on Main Menu, that one reason the demo runs 
>>>> for half an hour and doesn't have an expiration date is because G W 
>>>> Micro knows that many people can't afford the program and they keep 
>>>> that in mind in designing the demo.
>>>>
>>>> Free and for profit screen-readers have their
>>>> place and they both make important contributions to the blind community
>>>> having access to computers.  As I said at the outset, hostility toward 
>>>> for
>>>> profit screen-readers is not justified.
>>>>
>>>> Gene
>>>> -----   ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>  From: John Greer
>>>>  To: nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>  Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 4:54 PM
>>>>  Subject: [nvda] Re: window-eyes7 beta with scripting
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Perhaps a better perspective on it.  If it were not for NVDA, perhaps
>>>> Window Eyes would have never felt the need to add a scripting language 
>>>> into
>>>> their screen reader.  To me it just shows they feel affordable screen
>>>> readers like System Access and NVDA to be a threat to their bottom 
>>>> line,
>>>> $$$.  I know that since I made the switch to Vista installing Window 
>>>> Eyes
>>>> has not even been in consideration.  I know for a fact that NVDA and
>>>> narrator are the only 2 screen readers I know of that can work with the
>>>> media center in vista.  Jaws, Window Eyes and System access all cause 
>>>> media
>>>> center to hang because of their video intercept or display hooks.  So 
>>>> for
>>>> me, let them have their scripting language, to me and to many others it
>>>> comes down to not having to pay anything extra to use a computer simply
>>>> because we are that so called niche market called the blind.  I still 
>>>> refuse
>>>> to give GW Micro 900 dollars to use their product for a year.
>>>>
>>>> To post messages to the list send email to
>>>> nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> To modify your NVDA Email settings go to:
>>>> http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
>>>> Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an 
>>>> open source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/
>>>> To get the latest NVDA snapshot:
>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/
>>>> Report bugs or make feature requests at:
>>>> http://trac.nvda-project.org/
>>>> Message Archive:
>>>> http://www.freelists.org/archives/nvda
>>>
>>> To post messages to the list send email to
>>> nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> To modify your NVDA Email settings go to:
>>> http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
>>> Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an 
>>> open source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/
>>> To get the latest NVDA snapshot:
>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/
>>> Report bugs or make feature requests at:
>>> http://trac.nvda-project.org/
>>> Message Archive:
>>> http://www.freelists.org/archives/nvda
>>>
>>
>> To post messages to the list send email to
>> nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> To modify your NVDA Email settings go to:
>> http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
>> Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an open 
>> source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
>> http://www.nvda-project.org/
>> To get the latest NVDA snapshot:
>> http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/
>> Report bugs or make feature requests at:
>> http://trac.nvda-project.org/
>> Message Archive:
>> http://www.freelists.org/archives/nvda
>
> To post messages to the list send email to
> nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> To modify your NVDA Email settings go to:
> http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
> Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an open 
> source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
> http://www.nvda-project.org/
> To get the latest NVDA snapshot:
> http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/
> Report bugs or make feature requests at:
> http://trac.nvda-project.org/
> Message Archive:
> http://www.freelists.org/archives/nvda
> 

To post messages to the list send email to
nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To modify your NVDA Email settings go to:
http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an open 
source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
http://www.nvda-project.org/
To get the latest NVDA snapshot:
http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/
Report bugs or make feature requests at:
http://trac.nvda-project.org/
Message Archive:
http://www.freelists.org/archives/nvda

To post messages to the list send email to
nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To modify your NVDA Email settings go to:
http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an open 
source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
http://www.nvda-project.org/
To get the latest NVDA snapshot:
http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/
Report bugs or make feature requests at:
http://trac.nvda-project.org/
Message Archive:
http://www.freelists.org/archives/nvda

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