[nvda] Re: window-eyes7 beta with scripting

I completely agree. I'm a very happy Jaws user myself but have been very thankful for NVDA when Jaws has crashed on me or when I'm using somebody else's computer. There are a tremendous lot of people who can't afford the commercial screen readers and projects like NVDA will unlock a lot of what we take for granted for them. Also, as the quality of NVDA and the other free alternatives improves, perhaps it'll help make the commercial screen readers more affordable. I can't upgrade to Windows Vista due to what it would cost to upgrade my Jaws since I'm no longer up to date with my SMA plan. Should disaster strike, I'd have no choice pretty soon but to get a Vista machine and make use of free screen readers until the government funding came through. Both commercial and free screen readers have their uses.
I'm also still very hopeful that NVDA and/or other free screen readers will pay more attention to accessible games like interactive fiction. Some things like that just don't show up on the radar of commercially driven companies. In my guide, I've dedicated a whole section to covering the free screen readers now available. I hope it brings more users into the NVDA community as well as the others. 
Michael Feir
Author of Personal Power:
How Accessible Computers Can Enhance Personal Life For Blind People
2006-2008
www.blind-planet.com/content/personal-power
Creator and former editor of Audyssey Magazine
1996-2004
Check out my blog at:
http://www.blindspots.net/blog.php?user=13
----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@xxxxxxxxx> 
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 3:18 PM
Subject: [nvda] Re: window-eyes7 beta with scripting
I would expect that Window-eyes and their users are benefiting from other screen-readers experience with scripting but that isn't the point of my messages. I'm mainly saying that developing a free screen-reader is an important project because of the high cost of for profit screen-readers. Those who benefit will use it. But the for profit screen-readers will still have very valid reasons to be used and the hostility of many in the open-source community and many not in that community toward for profit screen-readers is not justified. Providing a free alternative does not necessitate hostility toward for profit programs. 

Gene
----- Original Message ----- From: "John Greer" <jpgreer@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 12:00 PM
Subject: [nvda] Re: window-eyes7 beta with scripting
And Window Eyes isn't benefiting from the scripting engine that has already been done before on other screen readers? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@xxxxxxxxx> 
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 1:49 PM
Subject: [nvda] Re: window-eyes7 beta with scripting
I didn't say you should buy it. I don't see any reason to buy anything if you can meet your needs without doing so. My main point is that I see lots of hostility toward the for profit screen-readers and their manufacturers not just here but all over and I'm saying it isn't reasonable and also that those who use free access programs are benefiting from all the work and years of experience gained by the for profit product manufacturers and their users. 

Gene
----- Original Message ----- From: "John Greer" <jpgreer@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 10:42 AM
Subject: [nvda] Re: window-eyes7 beta with scripting



regardless I am still not going to buy it
----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@xxxxxxxxx> 
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 10:46 AM
Subject: [nvda] Re: window-eyes7 beta with scripting
There is no logical reason for the hostility many blind people in the open source community, and out of it for that matter, display toward for profit 
screen-readers.  First, as a matter of simple economics, for profit
screen-readers need to charge a fair amount of money because the customer base is so small and development and expansion of functionality never stops. Also, you aren't paying 900 dollars for one year's access. You can use the program as long as it meets your needs without upgrading. I haven't checked the cost for an upgrade but if you upgrade each year, it's probably between 100 and 150 dollars as a rough guess. Many users can use versions of screen-readers that are many years old and do everything or almost everything they want to with the older versions.
Second, in lots of cases, the for profit screen-readers set standards and developed approaches that open source screen-readers either are held to or hold themselves to. The Internet is an excellent example. Third, while I'm pleased that open source screen-readers and other free alternatives are now available, the plain fact is that for profit Windows screen-readers were available a decade or more before any free product was. Where was the open 
source community all that time?

Also, considering the very different primary user bases of for profit
screen-readers and free ones, it is not logical to believe that Window-eyes added scripting to compete with NVDA. If anything, it did so to compete 
with JAWS.  Only a short-sighted person would rejoice if the free
screen-readers significantly erode the customer base of for profit
screen-readers. For profit screen-readers are necessary. No open-source 
screen-reader is going to have the development base to keep up with
developments in expanding the range of access to new applications as the for profit screen-readers. This is important for personal users who want access to applications not available in free screen-readers and is essential in terms of employment. To prove my point about lack of development resources, consider how long it has taken NVDA to get support for FireFox. It still doesn't have anything approaching proper support for Internet. Explorer. Maybe it will be able to use hooks one day to provide better access to some programs and just plain acces to others. Note carefully that I am not disparaging NVDA. I think it is important that a free screen-reader be available. But neither am I disparaging the for profit screen-readers. Indeed, there appears to be far more hostility in the open source community, at least judging by this list toward the for profit screen-readers than there is in the for profit community toward NVDA. And let's be fair and take account of the for profit manufacturers attempts to meet the needs of those who can't afford their programs. A number of years ago, one of the important people at G W Micro stated, on Main Menu, that one reason the demo runs for half an hour and doesn't have an expiration date is because G W Micro knows that many people can't afford the program and they keep that in mind in designing the demo. 

Free and for profit screen-readers have their
place and they both make important contributions to the blind community having access to computers. As I said at the outset, hostility toward for 
profit screen-readers is not justified.

Gene
----- ----- Original Message ----- From: John Greer 
 To: nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
 Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 4:54 PM
 Subject: [nvda] Re: window-eyes7 beta with scripting


 Perhaps a better perspective on it.  If it were not for NVDA, perhaps
Window Eyes would have never felt the need to add a scripting language into 
their screen reader.  To me it just shows they feel affordable screen
readers like System Access and NVDA to be a threat to their bottom line, $$$. I know that since I made the switch to Vista installing Window Eyes 
has not even been in consideration.  I know for a fact that NVDA and
narrator are the only 2 screen readers I know of that can work with the media center in vista. Jaws, Window Eyes and System access all cause media center to hang because of their video intercept or display hooks. So for me, let them have their scripting language, to me and to many others it comes down to not having to pay anything extra to use a computer simply because we are that so called niche market called the blind. I still refuse 
to give GW Micro 900 dollars to use their product for a year.

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Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an open source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows: 
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Report bugs or make feature requests at:
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To modify your NVDA Email settings go to:
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Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an open source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows: 
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To get the latest NVDA snapshot:
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Report bugs or make feature requests at:
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To post messages to the list send email to
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Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an open source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows: 
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To get the latest NVDA snapshot:
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Report bugs or make feature requests at:
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