[nvda] Re: nvda and OCR software

When I see something like the status of devices being read when the treeview level for the device is closed and no device has been selected and when no other screen-reader I tried, Thunder, Narrator, JAWS and Window-eyes doesn't read or evidently see the information anywhere on screen, I become very suspicious that material is not being read properly by NVDA. If you go to the My Computer item in the tree view, you hear that this device is working properly. When you go to any main level item, you hear the same message. System devices has many devices in it. On my computer, there about six. However, just stopping at the title system devices and not opening that level still produces the message that this device is working properly. Since you haven't even opened the level and selected a device, how is Windows supposed to know what device you want information on. Those with much more technical knowledge will, I hope, tell me if I am wrong but, as I said, I am very suspicious that this is incorrect reading of information and is not a true indication of the status of any device.
Regarding your other points, of course, what you tell someone depends on what they want to use the program for and their amount of knowledge. I probably wouldn't tell a programmer anything since the person probably wants to work on code. Someone looking for free or inexpensive alternatives to expensive screen-readers would likely benefit from some explanatory descriptions of the program.
I want to clarify that I wasn't saying, in my first reply that you should research a program like the OCR program. If you know about it and simply want to tell people it is available, that's fine. It might be a good idea, if it is the case, to say that you know nothing or little about the product and are simply stating that it is available. If you know about serious limitations, then, depending on context, it would often be a good idea to mention them. But I was not saying you have any obligation to research a program before sending a message telling a list that it exists.
When you say that free software may be good, that's true. However in my limited experience and from the little I've read on the subject, it appears to me that free programs that provide the ability to do something such as record and edit audio, as an example, which has lots of possible complex applications, is generally not nearly as capable as top of the line for profit products. Audacity is not by any means Sound Forge. But Audacity will meet many users' needs well as long as they don't want high quality filters and some other options available in expensive software. But then, Audacity isn't intended as a replacement for professional recording programs.
I had no intention of telling anyone not to use Simple OCR. However, the information I provided may keep some people from trying a piece of software they would find too limited. However, my main concern was not that the program is limited when I replied to your message. My main concern was to state that OCR software is by no means a blind person's almost exclusive product and to point out that it is not expensive to get good OCR programs and to point out that I was not complaining. OCR is difficult software to develop from the ground up. I see no reason to reinvent the wheel as an open-source Windows program when so many scanners already come with OCR software for free. There may be a reason to develop open-source alternative software for other operating systems since I doubt that scanners come with any other than Windows OCR software. In the case of Windows software, OCR software is so common and so cheap that an open source project is just a waste of time and effort. 

Gene
----Original Message ----- From: "John Greer" <jpgreer17@xxxxxxxxxxx> 
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 9:41 PM
Subject: [nvda] Re: nvda and OCR software
Keep in mind also that the individual asking for open source software may also be a programmer themselves. Also keep in mind that sometimes the free software may be able to do things that even the pay software doesn't do that you are not aware of personally or is not advertised on the website. For example NVDA you are able to choose what soundcard you want speech to come through. With Jaws, it is possible but it requires that you know something about ini files in order to modify it and make it do the same thing. Another small but useful thing to me, through trial and error that I discovered that NVDA does that others don't is in the device manager it can actually read the status of the devices when you arrow through the list. To my knowledge, none of the big three do this. Now that feature may not be useful to all but I don't feel that I get what I paid for just because Jaws can do some things that NVDA can't because there is good and bad to any software and it all comes from a persons personal experience with it. 
JohnPG search for all of your Jaws scripts at http://www.blindcrawler.com/
Also be sure to check out Blind Crawler's Legend of the Green Dragon server at http://www.blindcrawler.com/lotg/ 
There will be more to come from Blind Crawler very soon.
Administrator: John Greer
Blind Crawler.com
----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@xxxxxxxxx> 
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 11:21 PM
Subject: [nvda] Re: nvda and OCR software
If someone asks about a program like NVDA, I ask what the person wants to do with their computer and help them decide if the software will satisfy their needs well. I'm simply saying that the web site for the Simple OCR program plainly states that if you are scanning material with columns, it won't scan properly. If someone wants to try the software, that's fine. I didn't try it but I see no reason that the web site would make false statements about it. If someone is scanning material where each page contains a single column and they want to scan one single page at a time, then the software may meet their needs. Three or four hundred dollars is not an exhorbitant price to acquire a good OCR program. If the person has bought a scanner that doesn't come with OCR software, maybe they might want to return it and exchange it for a scanner that does come with such software. I don't know what the case is with members of this list in general but I find that on e-mail lists I am on, people often don't look carefully at web sites or do good research on products. I'm not saying no one does and this list may have a higher percentage of members who do. I'm simply pointing out that the Simple OCR software does what it says. It can handle simple single column material. If that meets someone's needs, fine. There are a large number of blind users whose needs either won't be met in this way or will not be met efficiently. Spending five or six hours to scan a book you could scan in two or two and one-half hours if you have a program capable of scanning two opposing pages simultaneously is not efficient. If someone just wants to read mail or is willing to spend the extra time to scan one page at a time of single column books certainly may find this program satisfactory. 

Gene
----- Original Message ----- From: "John Greer" <jpgreer17@xxxxxxxxxxx> 
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 9:08 PM
Subject: [nvda] Re: nvda and OCR software
Yes but your statements in most cases will prevent someone from even trying it out to see if it would work for them in some small way. The question being posed was, is there any free or open source OCR software that is available to use. How usable a program is depends on the individual. If the individual can use the software for what it does then so be it, it is worth a try in any respect. But if the individual needs it to do more than he or she discovers it can do, then they need to use the higher priced software. But to tell someone oh no don't use it because it is not to the standard of the others? Did you actually try the software to find out what it can actually do for you or did you just read it from the website? Sometimes the informed decision for an individual needs to come from trying it out to see if it can work for them. The individual may have just bought a scanner that didn't come with any OCR software, the individual may not be able to afford to spend 400 dollars on OCR software to do a certain project. Let's take a look at NVDA for a minute. Do you find that it does somethings for you for the cost of nothing? Do you suggest to someone that can't afford Jaws or Window Eyes oh no you have to buy Jaws or Window Eyes because NVDA doesn't do all that Jaws or Window Eyes can do? JohnPG search for all of your Jaws scripts at http://www.blindcrawler.com/ Also be sure to check out Blind Crawler's Legend of the Green Dragon server at http://www.blindcrawler.com/lotg/ 
There will be more to come from Blind Crawler very soon.
Administrator: John Greer
Blind Crawler.com
----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@xxxxxxxxx> 
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 10:37 PM
Subject: [nvda] Re: nvda and OCR software
I am not complaining and many of your observations are not accurate. If someone asks about a product and you know of something that is very limited, you might save that person lots of problems and time by discussing the limitations. The product you mentioned is very limited and those interested should be informed of these serious limitations if you are aware of them.
There is a world of difference between complaining and presenting facts. I also presented my opinion that the software is so limited that it amounts to the old adage that you get what you pay for.
As far as other observations are concerned, OCR is not mainly a blindness software. It is of particular interest to blind users but it is widely used in all sorts of settings by sighted users. Why would scanning companies include such products for free with their software if there were no interest. They are paying a license fee to do so. OCR is discussed at times on the Kim Komando program. Sites like the Gutenberg Project use OCR software to digitize public domain books available on the site. Businesses routinely use OCR to digitize documents for editing and easy distribution. Lots of sighted computer users digitize their libraries of print books. Both Openbook and Kurzweil use OCR engines designed for off-the-shelf products mainly bought by sighted users. Indeed, the sighted use and interest in OCR has greatly helped speed the development of high quality OCR software.
Open source software is fine but it often lags behind commercial software. why should Windows users care about supporting open-source OCR software when it can be had for free if you purchase a scanner, which you need anyway to use it.
Pointing out major shortcomings of programs discussed on an e-mail list is not complaining. It is informing. And it should also be pointed out that exorbitant prices are not necessary to acquire good OCR software. Fine Reader costs somewhere in the 350 dollar range. If you buy a roughly 100 dollar scanner such as an Epson Perfection scanner, OCR software that is very useable by blind people is included free with the scanner. 

Gene
----- Original Message ----- From: "John Greer" <jpgreer17@xxxxxxxxxxx> 
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 8:04 PM
Subject: [nvda] Re: nvda and OCR software
Well OCR is sadly, pretty much a blind only product. There are a few sighted uses for it but the majority of users are blind. So I feel until the blind community can stop complaining something doesn't work to their liking, and pull together and create something that blind users will be happy with, we are either stuck paying extravagant prices, or using what is available to the few sighted folks that use and develop it. At this point we are very limited in our choices. We have Kurtzweil, Open Book, Omni Page, and a product that is open source called G OCR that is early in development. Also, many blind people, including blind programmers don't even know what open source software is, or that it exists. Open source software for the blind is at the point for the blind where it was for the sighted in the mid 90's. It is there but fairly undeveloped. A majority of the blind community confuses me. They will sit back and wait for someone to either do it for them, and then complain if it is not to their liking, before they even actually try it, or not try it at all. Now I have also heard from the blind community the excuse that the sighted community does the same thing, but what I say to that is, it still doesn't make it acceptable in the real world or right. Because those sighted folks that do that sort of thing also get nowhere. So I have given my suggestions, the choices I have taken the time to research and know of are Simply OCR and G OCR. I might also suggest that if we here are true supporters of open source software, that we don't just sit back and be a consumer waiting for it to be done for us and start supporting the projects that could work for us. I suggest that we start pulling together and learn to use a tool like google and find that incedental software that is not known to us. So take a moment, get out of the habbit of sitting there all day doing nothing in the blind chat rooms, stop just complaining and learn what you don't know. End of rant. JohnPG search for all of your Jaws scripts at http://www.blindcrawler.com/ Also be sure to check out Blind Crawler's Legend of the Green Dragon server at http://www.blindcrawler.com/lotg/ 
There will be more to come from Blind Crawler very soon.
Administrator: John Greer
Blind Crawler.com
----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@xxxxxxxxx> 
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 7:45 PM
Subject: [nvda] Re: nvda and OCR software
According to the information on the web site, the software is free. I don't know what you downloaded from the site but it evidently isn't the free software available. However, according to the site, the free software has very severe limitations. Here is a quote from the information on the site:
If your documents have multi-column layouts, non-standard fonts, poor quality or color images, you will need one of our commercial ABBYY FineReader 9.0 Professional (Download) OCR applications or 
Imaging SDKs to get an accurate read.
In other words, if a book or magazine or document of any kind has more than one column, the free software won't decolumnize and read it in proper order. That makes the software very limited. You can't scan two opposing pages in a book simultaneously, thus making scanning take twice as long and much more cumbersome. It also means that you are limited to material with only one column. No wonder it's free. It's very limited and serious OCR users wouldn't be interested. 

Gene
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